I think we should all agree that it speaks for the character. The extent that execution plays a role in tier lists is top level play. If top level players make it feasible, you should take it into account for tiers. This gets rid of the theory fighting such as “Dhalsim is top tier in MvC2” but also does account for why a character like Wolverine who has great tools that are easier to use doesn’t out-rank a character that is in the same ballpark at a higher level of execution.
If you are only choosing haggar for the assist and don’t know how to use him, you’re going to lose period. That’s why early Tron users sucked with her and usually lost when it came down to her before they discovered she was actually good. People who use Haggar should be good with him in the first place. Also I think the guy was suggesting a nerf to his ASSIST not to the lariat as a whole, because that would be silly. Plus if Haggar really did get some buffs than maybe the nerf to his assist is warranted?
I’m not sure you realize how broken she would be like this. If she had say 800k HP, she would be broke even without healing field. You’d see her on point and her ridiculous runaway would have no counter anymore because chip does the same to her as it would to anyone else in the 800k hp range. She needs to keep DP or else she’ll be broken or turn to shit.
My changes
Dormammu
-Cannot have more than 1 run run tracking ball out at once, keeps damage and durability.
-Carpet fire disappears if Dormammu is hit. I jump over him, hit him, and I’m still eating fire.
Magneto
-Less meter gain on crazy loops and combos with J.H loops, keeps damage and ability to do those combos.
All divekicks
-Reduce hitstun - you stagger way too long after a random divekick and gives too much time to combo even on trades
-make them at disadvantage when blocked
Spencer
-Cannot interrupt all moves with Bionic Arm Super. Its stupid he can throw any move he wants out there and call it bait then just mash super when someone tries to punish. Maybe limit it so if he does a random grapple he cannot bionic arm until the grapple comes back to him. Keep all properties the same for the super otherwise.
Remove ground bounce from Air to Air moves
-Trollverines divekick
-Sent Frying Pan
All projectiles disappear from the screen if that character who threw them gets hit. Tired of getting smacked by hidden missles and the like even if I’m smart enough to punish those assists. Should work like sent drones assist where if I hit sent while hes active, the drones vanish.
So basically, what you’re saying is that since (just a hypothetical here) C.Viper can reach Wolverine level dominance when controlled by a top tier player, but Wolverine can dominate with an average at best player, then they deserve to be in the same tier? Sorry, but I disagree.
Look at MarlinPie for example. He’s the only person I can think of offhand that is sporting Viper on his teams, has tons of investment in her and has amazing execution, but even HE drops combos sometimes and gets blown up.
tier lists should depict the CURRENT TOP LEVEL OF PLAY and NOT POTENTIAL.
thank you.
disadvantage divekicks would be horrendously awful i don’t get why people dont understand this.
and no all projectiles should not vanish if you get hit. it’s that way with sentinel becuase lolbeyondbroken if not.
There are probably few people in the US with better execution than Marlin and yeah it sucks when you drop shit. For any character with high execution it will eventually come down to what tools end up being developed through the execution and whether or not those tools create extremely hard to deal with situations for the high cast. If C.Viper only gets to the point where she’s only as good as the combos you dont drop then that means the top tiers will have tools that still easily negate her offense. IMO she has too much potential for space control to be anything but A tier in a year.
The only thing I feel that definitely would put Akuma in A tier is his beam super game. Having a beam super that starts up 2 frames slower than Magneto’s disruptah is pretty fucking good. The beam super plus tatsu makes him a legitimate threat against Phoenix who literally can not start an offense without something projectile based and Akuma just shits on that.
Even though he can be a legit problem for Phoenix teams I haven’t personally seem much competitively out of Akuma that would make him look really scary for the future. None of his mix up or pressure seem real threatning yet now that people know how to deal with tatsu spam. Like if he actually does get in there’s some ok mix up he can do but nothing to be super scared about like Magneto or Wolverine. People generally just tend to play the range game and sit on beam and while that’s good…that’s at most reminiscent of a B plus character. If the opponent knows all they have to do is super jump or wave dash around your attempts to beam super and force you to burn meter that’s not that hard to get around. Haven’t seen anything from Akuma that’s really reminiscent of the powerful offense of the big guys like Mag or Wesker. I’ve seen more out of Viper’s offense even.
MarlinPie goes for the flashy hard stuff that have a high chance of being screwed up.
Chrisis plays Viper and does well sticking with the not as execution heavy combos that still turn out to be one touch kills.
Just read the tier list on first post. WTF @ Wolverine being at the top of S-tier? Where’s Renegade’s list?
S Tier
Phoenix, Magneto, Wesker, Ammy, Dante
Wolverine is not better than those 5.
I think you misunderstood what I said, and I admit I wrote it confusingly. I edited my original comment to try and make it less confusing.
I knew he was referring to his assist (and only his assist) when he was suggesting a nerf.
What I was replying to was what Tenyardmike said, which was that nerfing his assist doesn’t affect anything he has on point.
Which is true, that’s unarguable.
What I was trying to say is that Haggar isn’t that great of a character to be perfectly honest, and while nerfing his assist doesn’t affect him on point it affects him as a viable character for a team. It’s just like the comparison I made with Hsien-Ko. Nerf her pendulum assist without buffing anything is just like kicking a blind kid while he’s down because she really has nothing going for her except her assist. For the most part that’s what I was getting at with Haggar and the idea of nerfing his Lariat, as I didn’t see any kind of buffs associated when the nerf assist
It’s like MvC2.
You would have two amazing characters on a team, and one character just for their assist. The assist character itself isn’t very good but their assist is fantastic and adds a lot of dynamic to the team which makes up for their abilities on point.
When you nerf that characters assist without buffing them in other areas, then there’s really no point in using them versus someone else.
That’s all I was getting at. Like I said, I didn’t see a mention of a buff so I was just comparing a Haggar assist nerf to some kind of parallel with MvC2. If Haggar got buffs in other areas, sure why not, nerf his assist. I was just commenting on the idea of a nerf without associated buffs, and the fact that while it wouldn’t have consequences for Haggar on point, it would have consequences for him as part of a team dynamic and whether he would be Hsien-Ko status at that point.
I hope that cleared up what I said.
I will re-iterate: Give Hsien Ko and Arthur some more mobility and they’d be way more viable as characters. Damage buffs wouldn’t even really be necessary, especially in Hsien Ko’s case. She actually has some decent moves, it’s just that she can’t ever close distance with faster characters to take advantage of them.
Ahhh that definitely makes more sense. I thought you were talking about nerfing her pendulum in general and not just as an assist. Yeah then I can see what you’re saying. The problem is people just don’t know how to deal with Haggar/Tron assist really.
Why does carpet stay out there to save someone who couldn’t block a crossup? Its not even a special move, its down forward and H! Why does Doom’s missiles track AND get to stay out there if I hit doom as an assist? I already can’t pushblock Doom’s missile assist which already leads to some pretty stupid advantages depending on if the character on point has teleports or not. Maybe you’re right, some characters it shouldn’t be that way such as Ryu or Morrigan. But with Doom it def should go away. It doesn’t lessen the effect of the missiles, it makes it so you can’t call him all herp derp and he will be 100% safe guaranteed as long as 1 missile gets out.
since this thread is for improving/unimproving character…
Iron Man most wanted wishlist:
*Give more range on his launcher, or better yet give him a new animation for it…
*bring back his mvc2 smartbombs where it was controllable with different distance and instead of a DP Motion, an ATK+special button would work wonder.
these are some buffs i would love but it may not happen:
*make his standing H/launcher slightly more safer on block.
*make his dash cancellable so he can wash dash.
*faster tri-jump like magneto
I have been google cacheing the fuck out of that thread(which still in google’s database). Unfortunately I could not find most of that stuff with at all in the thread. Damn.
S Tier
Phoenix
A Tier
Dante
Magneto
Amaterasu
Wesker
Wolverine
Zero
Akuma
Taskmaster
B Tier
Sentinel
Storm
She-Hulk
Doctor Doom
Dormammu
Spencer
Trish
C Tier
Everybody else at the time.
people should stop the nerfing and get to the buffing. hiddin missiles should be able to be used how they currently are and so should flame carpet. it’s like having an assist for yourself! Which is cool. And more characters should have it.
But not captain. Cap if his shield hit on the way back would be retarded. I’d love it.
I’m not a top player by any measure, but I’ll throw my opinion in here for the hell of it. (I’m not completely out of the loop; I do attend tourneys and watch more streams than I watch television)… Feel free to rip it apart, “+” means potential for the character to rise, “-” is potential to fall, “?” is I really don’t have enough experience as or against the character so it’s based purely on discussions and what I see on streams. Characters are in order within tiers.
S: Magneto, Wesker-, Dante, Phoenix+
A: Taskmaster+, Ammy, Zero, Wolverine, Akuma, Sentinel-
B+: Trish+, Viper?, Storm-, Dormammu, She-Hulk, Spencer, Doom, Deadpool-
B: X-23+, Shuma-Gorath?, Tron, Spider-Man+, M.O.D.O.K.?, Super-Skrull, Iron Man, Chris
C+: Morrigan+, Chun-Li, Felicia-, Ryu
C: Jill?, Thor, Viewtiful Joe+, Hulk, Captain America
D: Haggar, Arthur, Hsien-Ko
Yeah, my bad. After you replied to my comment I re-read what I wrote and was like, “Yeah, I wrote this terribly.”
I agree with Gimpy, I’d love to see more ideas for buffs rather than ideas for nerfs. I personally think the top 15 are relatively fine as they are and only need minor adjustments but the bottom 15 need a ton of help and I’d like to see more ideas for them.
I’m all for the thought of an improved hitbox on his launcher. It’s just so… meh.
I’d also like to see Iron Man’s Proton Cannon lose a lot of its start-up frames. Its startup is so slow right now, especially in comparison to Akuma’s beam hyper which starts up in less than a third of the time.
In a year we will probably be playing Super Marvel vs Capcom 3: Champion Edition
People are overrating Wesker a bit I feel. I think he is top 5 but not top 2. He has bad matchups against a lot of the upper class, notably: Magneto, Ammy, Zero, Wolverine, Phoenix
Just to remind some people in this thread, suggesting nerfing what the character’s good in is very unthoughtful. Don’t suggest nerfing a character on what he is good in, it’s like trying to make all the characters the same exact character. (Ex. nerf Magneto’s tri-dash speed, Zero’s priority, Sentinel super-armor, Wesker’s teleport speed, etc.)