them Dante n ammy nerfs are not serious
I actually hope nobody gets nerfed and there is a lot of buffs
all the charecters that get no play MODOK ARTHUR JOE CAPT ETC they all need an UPGRADE
I don’t think modok needs a buff
he has top 5 potential in the game imo
The most important things Hsien-Ko needs are improvements to her mobility and a second look at her damage and hitstun decay scaling. In a fast paced game such as MvC3 where so many of the cast have amazing mobility options and teleports, a defensive zoning game on a slow, low health, low damage output character simply isn’t viable. Compared to Vampire Savior, she had her most valuable tools stripped away for seemingly no reason, and if Capcom expects her to enjoy some significance in MvC3, they need to be returned.
- The speed of her air dash needs to be at least doubled.
- The startup and recovery of her ground dash needs to be reduced - this is not entirely necessary if the air dash speed gets a significant enough boost.
- Senpu-Bu needs to be able to be cancelled at any point, perhaps by pressing the Special attack button. This was a crucial aspect of her mixup game in VS and without it she seems like half a character.
- The bombs she tosses with Anki Hou need to be given a hitbox when they are first tossed in order to prevent opponents from harmlessly passing through them and leaving Hsien-Ko vulnerable. They either need to at least generate an impact, cause some damage, or simply explode on impact when tossed.
- Her damage and hitstun decay rates seem incredibly broken. For a character with severely limited options on extending her combos outside of corners and with no reliable self-OTG (aside from her supers, obviously), her damage output is laughable. The main culprit seems to be her jumping heavy attack, which inflicts a huge amount of damage and hitstun decay, but at the same time is her best method of leading her offense due to it’s long range.
- Light and Medium Gong need to last longer. Light Gong will almost never work against projectiles since doesn’t exist long enough. It’s only application seems to be extending combos, but it will only work if Hsien-Ko is literally in her opponent’s face in the corner.
- Rimokoun (aka gold armor) needs to be changed to a 10 second duration when she is on point. 5 seconds just isn’t enough time to get in against a mobile opponent, and as mentioned earlier, nearly everyone in the game is more mobile than her.
It’s been claimed that Hsien-Ko was designed to be a “strong assist character” - not even her assists are that great. Senpu-Bu needs to have a bar of super invested into it in order for it to be applied as an “invincible” assist - otherwise you might as well not even use it for anything other than extending combos because it leaves her incredibly vulnerable. Her Gong assist is the medium version and doesn’t last long enough to be effective, and Anki Hou - while speedy - is unpredictable and the items have only 1 point of durability on them, meaning they get beat by everything. If Gong is to be kept, it needs to be changed to the heavy version. Anki Hou should be removed entirely and replaced with Edoga, her Heavy Blades attack, which would be a useful anti-air.
Felicia could use some help as well, but really in only one department - her air game. As it stands now she is the only character without a special that can be performed in the air. In MvC3, battles are typically won or lost from the air. Every other rushdown character in the game has some kind of air option to assist with or cover their approach - be it an air dash, a diving attack, flight mode, a teleport or an aerial projectile. Some characters, like Dante and Trish actually have all of these options. What Felicia really needs is to be able to perform Delta Kick in the air again like she was in MvC2, or be given a command dive attack that allows her to rapidly descend from the air.
Morrigan is perhaps the best built of all 3, balanced in most respects and has a great combination of tools and mobility that are crucial to a character in MvC3. The only department she could use a small boost in is her damage output on her basic normals.
If I had a chance to wield the Nerf Bat…
- Air Dashes need to count as special moves and be subject to the “aerial special moves” cap.
- The hitboxes on Dante and Zero’s normals need to be reworked so that they don’t extend so far behind them. As of now, mashing with these characters seems like your best defense option as you’re just as likely to catch someone behind you as you are in front of you.
- Wesker’s normals - at least his launcher - need to have their frame advantage looked at. In his current build, literally everything Wesker does is safe on block, which is by far the thing that makes him so dangerous.
- Wolverine needs to be vulnerable during Berserker Slash, just as Zero is vulnerable during his dash/teleport move.
No it isn’t. Not even close. Giving a character new tools can have extremely unpredictable effects on the metagame, whereas it is easier to anticipate what will happen when you take a tool away or limit is effectiveness. Especially since the god tier in this game is only 5 characters out of 35, how on earth will you be able to anticipate how the game will look and play if you are changing 30 characters?
I was a big proponent of buffing everyone in SF4 to bring people up to Sagat’s level. I saw what happened with Super, then AE… and the conclusion I drew from it is that trying to rebalance the whole cast is a lost cause. Stick with a small handful of characters - whether it is a few chars that need buffed or nerfed you need to reduce the number of changes you make as much as possible. Occam’s Razor.
Buff 30 characters or nerf 5. Buffs - unpredictable. Nerfs - predictable. One way is basically doomed to fail. MvC3 is a complex enough game system as it is… how do you think you will buff characters like Hsien-Ko, Joe and Cap that are barely played, and when they are played, are only done so at a low level? Research methodology - sample size counts for a lot.
Compare how much Cap, Hsien-Ko and Joe are played to how much Dante, Magneto, Wesker, Amaterasu and Wolverine are played. Consider that playtime = knowledge, you need knowledge to make a buff/nerf decision, and the natural conclusion is…
So now instead of needing real team chemistry, you can use the same team-by-numbers bullshit you can use with the top tiers?
lol i don’t see how your comparing sent to dante. since the playstyles seem so different. but yea, dante imo is the best character in this game. you just need to out a lot of effort and time to bring out that devil may cry shit in him. and you are correct about dante getting toned down. which i think is dumb within the context of marvel. i mean, wasn’t nitshuuma quoted saying “broken is good”? i don’t see why they will back out their word now. it would just be best to buff the characters that arent top 10-15 and leave the top people alone.
:eek: I’m also of the school of thought that nerfs in this game would generally be a bad idea.
I make my own fighters for fun and the most challenging, but rewarding, aspect of building them is to determine how I want the characters to interact in each one. Do I want a fair balance? Do I want some characters to purposefully be better than others? Do I want the lowest common denominator to rule the balancing process or can the sky be the limit? Don’t forget than not balance, but the way in which you balance, also has a heavy outcome on the pace of the game and overall gameplay. Nerfing in Street Fighter works because of the pace of the game and because of its role as a “standard” fighter.
I -completely- understand where sakeido is coming from with the standpoint of why nerfing less would be better than buffing more. I do not agree, but I totally know what he’s thinking. The reason I don’t agree is because…yeah, this is Marvel and “everyone is supposed to be cracked straight out the gate,” but in all honesty, this game would be super boring with nerfs to the top characters. If we even make the middle-of-the-road the target for character balance, I don’t know if I would exactly be a fan of this game anymore. The general game is designed for over-the-top nonsense while still be accessible and playable. Instead of punishing the characters that meet the criteria for the game’s design (outside of patching DHC glitch, which needs to happen), I submit to you that the staff should take another go at “doing their job” (love how arrogant that sounds, yet the phrase is so necessary) and making sure that the other characters can come around and be as boisterous and playable as the tops, regardless of whether they’re super amazing or not.
Just a few personal notes before I finish.
I used to hate Dante. With a passion. I have a good friend who plays him and that made me hate him more because this kid is so good with Dante. I would rage endlessly about the damage, the safety, the options, and the rape. Then when I was making a new team last month, it so happened to be that Dante would fit one of my slots the best considering the objective and makeup of the team, so I decided to give it a whirl and get me some “free wins”. I quickly learned that regardless of whether I was right or wrong in my complaining, the character is fine. Dante has his fair share of weaknesses. His weaknesses are actually -REALLY- annoying. He can get blasted just like anybody else in this game, and this is from someone who had no end to my hatred of him.
The only ONLY ONLY nerf I would make to any character ever EVER in this game PERIOD would be to not have Wesker’s 2B hit low.
On that note, people should stop complaining about dive kicks. They’re designed in almost every game for total safety and while Trish’s might -seem- to take that notion to new heights, Wolverine’s is punishable when he’s not covered by assists or Berderper Charge.
Aerial Shield Slash L should OTG for Captain America. 
And, yes, 2C should OTG for Hsien-Ko.
Hsien-Ko is my baby and it saddened me to see what happened to her in this game. What I think needs to happen with this character is that the person (or people) involved in her initial development should sit down and decide once and for all what her design philosophy is and stick to it. Should she rush? Should she camp? Should she zone and be a sort of counter-puncher with combos? I don’t know if she would be ridix if she got buffs to handle all those roles at once (I honestly don’t know), but I know if they picked one and focused, she could be good. I have faith.
get rid of the hard knockdown on lariat assist and i’d be a little more happy with the game
my 2 cents
I think Cap is going to be a piece of shit whether or not Wesker has more health or not. Or if Tron has a damage nerf. Beefing the good characters doesn’t make the guys who play like ass not play like ass. You just have more guys who play like ass at the end of the day.
While buffing the lower tier characters is probably better than nerfing the top tier, giving all the low tier characters the same tools that the top tier have (like OTGs for everyone) just homogenizes the cast. It’s better to look at what the character is strong at, or supposed to be strong at, and either buff that, or buff things that work well with it. Hsien Ko, for example, has high-priority normals, good ability to control space, and good counter-zoning, but low mobility, low damage, but can offset the damage problem by spending extra meter. It would be better to make her into a better space-controlling character with more reward for properly controlling space than just another high-damage rushdown character.
yea, dante have weaknesses that nobody seems to exploit. like once you get in on his ass he really can’t touch a button because his normals are slow as shit ( fastest normal is 8 frame start up ). and he dies pretty fast too. but don’t get me wrong, i still think dante top 2 in the game.
They obviously designed Hsien Ko to be a strong assist character. All they really need to do is make her faster on point and that would make her instantly better.
The problem with Dante is once he’s cracked out he basically will have no weaknesses. Any of his weaknesses are fixed with a good assist, DT, bold cancels and good spacing. On paper he pretty much has the potential to never get hit ever. He’s probably the closest in the game to a Phoenix that actually requires work. The only on paper weakness he will have is a slight bit of trouble getting in on certain zone based characters and slow normals for punishing in certain situations. Though his advantages far outweigh any of those issues to the point of ridiculousness. Even Wesker’s potential for amazing team killing potential will eventually fall to Dante cracked out a year or 2 from now.
yeah, I play her too, and that was one of the things I said early on aside from being a super assist
when she’s on point she has a bit of an identity crisis
I agree but they specifically said they weren’t making assist only characters no?
IMO the only middle-of-the-road characters in this game are the bottom tier ones, which I would say are just Hsien-Ko and Capt… almost everyone else has something ridiculous they can use. X-23 left/right plus command grab all into huge damage; MODOK crazy zoning, lameass runaway, and punishing combos when he gets an opening; She-Hulk crazy pressure into big damage; Spencer murdering characters and their assists; Spider-Man having crazy overheads into big damage plus some good runaway moves; Akuma jumping around doing air fireballs until he suddenly rocks you by comboing a bunch of supers together for 900k+ damage, etc.
Its just that top tiers have one crazy gimmick, and then some.
X-23 has left/right/command grab, which Wolverine has aside from the grab… except his l/r is faster, invincible, he has a dive kick that causes floor bounce, much more priority on his normals, and a smaller hitbox
MODOK has his runaway, zoning and big damage, which Dante has… and Dante also has a sword, teleport, air dash, jump cancelable normals, a way of recovering life, and a few invincible moves
She-Hulk can blow up advancing guard and then murder your character, which Magneto can do… except Magneto has high/low instead of just low, plus left-right, and can combo off all his grabs, and can zone from full screen, he builds more meter, etc
etc.
that is where I am coming from. everybody should have something strong, yes, and most characters do. The top tiers take things a little too far.
Oh my dear god this. I didn’t buy and invest energy into Marvel so that characters who have godlike tools but require extensive knowledge, experience and execution to win with at a high level get nerfed into the ground. The mentality before the game came out was correct, MvC characters are godlike and the team mechanics make the game creative and interesting. We haven’t seen anything broken yet so nothing needs nerfs. Sentinel didn’t need a health nerf imo, in fact I’d be happy if capcom re-patched Sentinel back to his original health and issued a statement along the lines of “sorry for pre-emptively fucking with something less than a month into the game that wasn’t broken, we offer this rebalance as a good faith statement that we aren’t going to make MvC3: AE by nerfing good characters because people (scrubs) cried about it.”
Capcom needs to quickly patch only things that break the game, Capcom needs to buff weak characters it in a thoughtful way and most importantly Capcom needs to let the metagame develop/flesh-out extensively (see: longer than SF4 > Super > AE) before considering introducing moderate buffs. This probably won’t happen though, I can explain why in one symbol: $.
As far as Dante, there’s no way Capcom made Dante without knowing he was going to be omgwtf godlike. Seriously, people knew that once Dante was explored he would be one touch kills and godlike screen presence all day long within the first 2 weeks the game came out, how could Capcom not have known? To go back and nerf the crap out of him totally fly in the face of his whole original design.
also different games work different ways. MvC3 ain’t SF4, and vice versa. Also maybe it’s just me, but the game isn’t only as good as it is balanced. Most great FGs are not perfectly balanced, that’s just the way it is. Characters should be made to suit the game and The fun value in it, not simply so everything has peRfrct balance, since it seems like actual fun is scarificed to meet that balance. I guess that’s my own shitty logic though.
Also, for the record, it’d be kinda dumb to pay for an installment based on a few nerfs, besides it being lame in of itself, you don’t even get anything new to play around with, other than finding ways to compensate for character losses I guess.
Ya because Haggar has so many things going for him.
A lot of the more recent posts make some of you sound really salty/butthurt/bitter/whatever adjective you like. The best thing to do in terms of nerfs IMO is to nerf no one(with the possible exception of some frame advantage and damage output) and just buff the weaker characters.
Cap: invin cartwheel and HCS, invin AAA
Ryu: overhead links to S, increase range on cr.L and S
Chun: full screen fireball, speed changes with L, H and angle changes with M(uf)
Thor: small speed boost, better chip on prjoectiles
Iron Man: change cr.H, less recovery on S, more active frames on cr.M
Spider-Man: small damage boost on normals, UWT grabs grounded opponents(I wish even though I don’t play him)
Joe: increased range on S, faster airdash, “'hover charge” voomerang (like someone else said), with 0.5 secs less for full charge, horizontal RH kick
Hsien Ko: speed boost, longer gong
All of these might be too much but I think a combination of some of them would be good
30? Try 5-7. IMO most of the cast is fine. “Fine” as in no changes needed.
I agree. Changes should be made as close to the idea of the scientific method as possible, i.e. change as few things as possible and see how the system as a whole is effected (obviously we don’t have time for 35 editions of the game but you get the idea)
Actually upon reflection I would say that both are predictable to a degree. If something is buffed it will be better (duh) and if it’s nerfed it will be worse (duh). What you never really know is whether or not the change(s) will be enough to make something playable or unplayable respectively. As I said I favor the opportunity to possibly have more playable characters than fewer.
The conclusions that I draw is that Cap, Hsien-Ko and Joe need help in the mix-up, damage and mobility and damage departments respectively and that Dante, Magneto, Wesker, Amaterasu and Wolverine need minor adjustments to hit-boxes, slight nerf to EM Disruptor, no changes, no changes and maybe a height restriction on dive kick respectively.
Nice try but no. Now instead of needing to use one of three viable OTG assists she’d be able to use one of about a bajillion (approximate estimate) assists that can hold someone in place long enough to extend the combo. Another option would be to change the properties of f.H so that you could jump cancel it into a low air combo before going into launcher. There are ways to make fixes without attempting shotgun surgery on anyone.
I don’t really understand the logic behind the notion that balance should be abstained from. A lot of people seem just fine with the idea that some characters be sub par and some characters be godly, with this massive gulf between them, so long as it didn’t affect the “fun” of the game.