MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
4081

Ok, first, someone said the 3 most braindead characters, where i added some for the easiest to use character.
We all aggreed, then you come and say : You can’t say braindead without a reason. But don’t people know the reason why Sent is braindead ? And why it’s clearly accepted everywhere ? Three facts : Drone assist / Xfactor 3 / Damage. BRAINDEAD

Tron is braindead and that’s AGAIN obvious… i mean spam her gustaff, then whe she is on point, jump dash H all over… very hard to use isn’it ?

Deadpool all-around is piss easy, seriously man… he has teleport to go away, good chip, and nice combo options. And braindead DHC.

Hsien-Ko assist blabla… Hsien is terribad overall and she is only worth one Hyper combo to swap her. Then she dies. Teleport sucks, normal are multi hit, and she has many more weaknesses… Her dash also is a terrible one.

C Viper is the second hardest again for obvious reason, that better player could tell you more in details. From what I have tested in the lab, her normal are slow, ridiculously short range poke, and have bad recovery for what they are.
Also, her combo involves alot of Air instant dash into launcher, the timing is extremely difficult to have.

You tell me you have fought some MODOK and some were good… so what ? He still is the hardest to win with and to be efficient with.

I didn’t speak about Viewtiful Joe because he doesn’t belong to the BRAINDEAD characters. He needs some skill, same as Morrigan. That doesn’t stop them from sucking, because of average life, bad damage, and overall ineffective gameplay (maybe not for V. Joe… we’ll see later…)

4082

Overall use of Gustaff Flame may decline as people find more ways around it but I don’t see Tron on point ever being better than Tron as an assist.

4083

ROFL
You realize Viper got bodied SUPER HARD all the time ? And that overall Chrisis Ammie did all the job ? Really guys… be honest.
C. Viper is low tier and that’s it.
May Chrisis switch C. Viper to Magneto, he would have destroyed this tournament.

There is a reason all the top MVC 3 player (except MarlinPie who has inhuman execution anyway) never play C. Viper : she requires ten times more execution than Magneto, for a worse result.

So Chrisis, switch to Magneto.

4084

Sentinel is 10-15. Sent isn’t on 75% of teams anymore, forget PAST tourney results.

Diversity is still blooming and Sent is falling off.

Chrisis bodied Honzo with Viper in the lastest IPW vids.

4085

Viper is not going to need normals once people get their execution up with her. Her normals will be a land field of mines that will destroy your assists and give her combos. The fact that she can seismo chain even on a whiff seismo will become retarded good as the game evolves.

People aren’t even doing like 40 percent of what Viper can potentially do. Obviously he would do good with Wolverine because Wolverine is such a dry character that there’s nothing else to be figured out about him. He got to 100 percent potential day 2 and people realized he’s solid and safe but that’s about where he’ll stay IMO. In SFIV a character like that can run the game but in this game you need shit cheaper than left right slash to be like top 3 character in the game. Well of course now that SFIV has Yun it has a legit problem character running the game again.

4086

Viper looked like a liability for the entirety of that LF set. Not once did she do anything several other characters couldn’t have done better…

I don’t know if that’s enough to call her low tier though. I could still see her potential, but that just wasn’t a good example of it (it’s possible she is low tier of course too)… Just the fact that he made it to losers’ finals with her demands some respect; whether for the player or the character I don’t know.

4087

Check. Shes a bad anchor.

I agree actually. I play my friends team of wolverine tron dante/sent and the guys great, his tron is beast has great resets but its due to weasel shot/drones helping out tron. I am argueing that she is a bad anchor. Not a bad character.

Trying to compare it to this whole “braindead” arguement, not really Maggy himself.

I didnt say shes not hard. Just asked for a reason.

She has great combos, ok. That doesnt necessarily make a good character if they are hard to open up a character with…sound like anyone? (Sent, Hulk…) And anyway, Im saying shes bad as an anchor and not at all braindead.

Compare it to lvl 3 xfactor maggy then.

I just find her lacking tools to open up when in the anchor spot. Shes a greta character, Im not argueing that. I run Joe/Deadpool/Tron and yeah, most the time I don’t even get to her. But I feel in the situation you do she just isnt very good. Even with lvl 3 xfactor. Its well worth it for the assist tho imo.

I can’t accept braindead until I see someone winning many matches against better people because of it. That doesnt happen due to ANY character. MAYBE lvl 3 xfactor is braindead. Maybe. Its a stupid term though. Its implying that my little brother who just spins the stick and mashes buttons could beat me with it.

Haha wow shows how much you know. Bait out the assist and punish, play it like its mvc2 psylocke bro. When she comes out, she cant camp you so rtsd and if she “jumps and spams H” then simply anti air or do a counter hyper.

Yeah OK, shes a great assist character, and it seems no one knows about her instant overhead THC. activate THC, if they are in blockstun they have to have been blocking high or they take the hit. Joe Hsien Ko Skrull makes it invincible with great range and follow up combo afterwards. How is that bad? Shes like a nerfed Tron with better assist, more set up, and an awesome overhead. Oh and she negates zoning well.

Every character takes skill to beat someone good. there are no braindead characters. Just some braindead mechanics, I suppose. Im not sold on that either.

Exactly. Her best place is either as anchor with someone confident enough to clean house with their first two characters, because her fighting there is a very uphill battle. or 2nd with a GREAT assist and a character that has good comeback factor.

4088

Not talking about using 2 meters to perform combo breaker. You should be able to have a combo breaker when you first activate X factor while in hit stun just like how you combo break out of a team aerial attack except it would map to a new button (possibly holding down the special button for a little over 1 second.)

Ok, back to the tier talk. Who would you think would benefit the most from X factor lvl 3? Kind of a hard list to think of but interesting none the less.

Best XF level 3 characters (Aka anchors)
Dark Phoenix
Sentinel
Morrigan with Astral Vision
Arthur with Golden armor
Wolverine with Berserker Charge
Dante with Devil Trigger
Zero with Sougenmu

Worst XF level 3 characters (Aka anchors)
Hsien Ko
Hagger
Tron

4089

The fact that you guys are looking at sub par play of the game 3 months in for convincing Viper play is really interesting.

Felicia, Ryu and Dormammu are also in there for team eating XF3’s. Chun Li would be too if she actually got damage off throws. If she ends up getting sick mix ups after a throw it could easily work. You can’t press buttons at her when she’s in level 3 XF and she will catch up to you.

4090

When people wants to win they pick Anchor sentinel very often. Or D. Phoenix (but that’s another bigger problem…). He is not in 75 % of the games anymore, but 50 % probably

“Some characters will improve and improve, and Wolverine will fall” … I hear this since day 1. Wolverine still wins major tournament, Not C. Viper.

4091

I personally haven’t seen Wolverine win enough major tournaments to say he’s legit top 5. This game competitively isn’t even really played at that high of a level yet so the results now are very arbitrary IMO. With any completely new game like this there’s just a lot of small things that will need to be figured out before people can say stuff for sure. Wolverine is going to run around pretty much forever but it’s not like it’s going to get easier for him. It will only get easier for other characters to beat him. A character that hits a ceiling as early as Wolverine will eventually have issues.

Plenty other good characters like Magneto or Dante that are already beasting and winning local and bigger events and their potential for improvement is nearly limitless within the next year. Can’t say the same about Wolvie. Wolvie will always be a force but at best he’s looking like Cable in MVC2 in the future. Good but…you could do better and the players shift away to characters of true power will eventually come to place.

A year or 2 from now will be a better judgement of Wolverine’s placement. When people start doing more than ABCS vs. Pushblock 3 in top 8 weekly tourneys…we’ll see.

4092

Dr. Doom as well. Maybe Wesker.

4093

fixed

4094

Anchor list (from best to Worst):

Dark P
Sent
Akuma + 2 bars
Doom
Dormammu + 5 bars
Arthur +5 bars
Wesker
Storm + bars
Spencer + at the very least one bar

NOT
Wolverine with Berserker Charge
Dante with Devil Trigger
Zero with Sougenmu

WHY
Way better as point.

Hulk should never be Anchor, but can work as a surprise three hit killer. In a laughable game.

4095

@X-ecutah: I have ass execution that’s why I have the other 2 on my team, I lack a console for training mode and thus don’t get to get down solid all of these things, if you listen to the commentators on the stream and watch all the matches you’ll notice that Viper does more damage than my other 2 by a fairly significant margin. The amount of effort and thought it takes to make Dog or Task good is very minimal, Viper is better than them but takes more effort. A parallel would be in Marvel 2 fighting a THC team like Bulletta, Juggernaut, Spiral which can 1 hit kill, to fighting team combofiend which can 1 hit kill off of a much broader set of circumstances and is over all a superior team but at scrubby early lifetime of the game is harder to use since people don’t understand and utilize the basics correctly.

This is my Viper getting bodied? o.o [media=youtube]EDrAtXZD8I0[/media]

I see my Viper getting near perfects on teams then dying off of X-factor out of block stun or Dark Phoenix who I agree is one of her worst match ups along with Trish and MODOK. This is most apparent in the matches versus Fillipino Champ and against Honzo. This is of course with my tourney nerves as I still don’t do the majority of what I can in casuals on stream. Everyone I play with knows to kill Viper as off stream my ratio of letting a character live if I touch them with Viper is around 30% versus 70% not good at the moment, but this is in a game that I don’t have training mode on to get my combos down perfectly. On stream I still hit some things occasionally but just haven’t fully dealt with nerves yet.

Magneto is an easier to use than Viper but is an inferior character once people get the execution to actually use her tools. Mags is to Viper what Sentinel is to Taskmaster. A lot of similar strengths that aren’t on the same level, but Taskmaster’s still easy to use, Viper isn’t.

I have played Mags before, and in Marvel 2 aside from my main team I play a lot of MSP, Mag Sent Cyke, and a little Row. Viper’s rushdown is as hard to block as MvC2 Magneto getting in, it’s just harder to execute since a lot of basic things like her best form of movement or her safest zoning options take much more learning than their easy mode alternatives.

Along with all this I need to note that if Viper is played correctly she should never rush down, she puts an enemy in block stun then either chips them to death or guaranteed unblockable set up depending on which is more spacing and gauge efficient.

Edit: As for anchor characters, don’t discount Dante, he fills any position well on a team whether it’s first with 2 assists combined with a DHC glitch set up, second for the safe or damaging DHCs, DHC glitch finisher and use of his beyond amazing assists. Or anchor where with X-f3 and 1 gauge he chips more than Akuma does and has all the other positive things over other characters. Agreed with you that Dark Phoenix is the best though as X-factor level 3 negates her glaring weakness to chip damage making her a much more formidable character.

4096

You are right from A to Z in this post and the others, except for one thing :
Some characters will never reach their full potential because humans can do better with the tools provided from another character, may you practice one day or 10 years. It has always been, still is, and will always be this way (think of MVC 2 Dhalsim, where some people making “theorycrafting” said he could be on par with the god tier StorMagSent…, yeah but no)

4097

I already knew you were a fucking good player, i didn’t speak about that. I’m just wondering how would you perform with Magneto instead of Viper.
And you are clearly an execution player, i just wonder what if you switched Viper to a better overall execution character. That’s all.
Nice skill though, props to you.

4098

If a robot is playing MvC2 Dhalsim he is godlike and with gauge and the right team guarantees a win via full unblockable set up into death combo into guard break against all 3 characters. Humans are not robots and all the amazing things about sim are less amazing when you factor in the chances of actually hitting them unless you have Khaos’ execution is not at a high enough ratio to rely upon them. I also play Dhalsim in MvC2 and think in theorycraft he’s right there with Sent and IM, in practical gameplay with what humans can do he’s good, but nowhere near Mags who needs to work a tenth as hard to get the same reward.

Viper is not like Dhalsim, all her tools are possible for humans to execute consistently, they aren’t 3 1 frame links to just get 1 attack to chain into another, they’re just very foreign commands that a lot of people don’t have down yet akin to early ROM. In theory fighter Viper has a 10-0 match up against every character who isn’t MODOK thanks to how the match starts + an invincible move that leads into a block string that leads into an unblockable, but practically she is still amazing and useful.

Naw, my execution is pretty bad for someone who plays the characters I do. Despite beating K-beast at the previous Starbase tourney I can’t even consistently rapid fire seismic hammer. ^.^; Haunts has ranted before about how in SFIV my combo was jab jab throw because my execution was that shitty. I’m not that terrible any more, but my play comes more from basics and decision making or else I would definitely have the infinite seismos of doom down. XD

I’ve tried Magneto in this game, he’s easier to use but I find the inherent risk reward he has although amazing isn’t as stupid as Viper who can potentially take next to 0 non execution based risk for massive potential reward. I think Mags is definitely top 8, but don’t think he’s anywhere near Viper once people actually start to use her.

Also to revise my previous tier list, after some thought I’ve come to agree with people about the validity of Storm as a character, primarily thanks to the fact that her damage issue is solved thanks to the DHC glitch. I was wrong about her and thus changed my opinion. :smiley:

Each letter is not necessarily in order except for S+

Unknown tier: I don’t adequately understand enough about these characters to tier them.
Jill: Potentially very good, I don’t have enough understanding of what she can do. ©
Shuma: Great assist, interesting tools on point potentially strong (C+)
MODOK: I’ve seen some people use him to great effect and he seems to potentially have good match ups against some notable characters (Wesker, Dog, Viper, Wolverine)
Thor: I do not have the information required to adequately say what he can do, precursory glances made him look bad, but I haven’t gotten enough lab time to check.
Spiderman: I’ve heard from many people that he’s amazing and he has a lot of interesting tools, he can definitely open people up and do damage just unsure exactly where he should be placed.
Viewtiful Joe: I see a lot of potential though I fear a lot of the characters with dominant tools have very effective counters to it.
Hulk: A lot of people I respect say he’s being slept on, I don’t see it but I’ll take them at their word on the subject, regardless I think he has bad match ups against a lot of good characters.

Special case tier: Other factors are important team related factors may outweigh their ability to function on point.
Haggar
Tron

S+: Other than execution I view these characters as having minimal downsides and very few bad match ups.
Dark Phoenix
C.Viper
Dante

There is a significant gap between here and everywhere else

A:
Magneto
Ammaterasu
Taskmaster
Wesker

A-:
Doctor Doom
Dormammu
Zero
Storm

B+:
Trish
Spencer
Wolverine
Felicia

B:
Chris
Akuma
Spencer
X-23 (If she touches a character the character dies, and once she gets in that’s not too difficult depending on the character and assists, I really feel that a lot of teams completely keep her out however.)

C+:
S-Skrull
She-hulk

C:
Chun-Li (May be higher, her rushdown is amazing just everything else isn’t.)
Ryu
Deadpool
Sentinel

C-:
Tron (Yes, I know she’s on here twice.)
Captain America
Iron Man
Morrigan (May be higher, though she has some large fundamental issues, may have good matches against some important characters.)

D: These are among the characters I feel with their given tools can’t compete once people start doing things effectively or have such a crippling match up as to prevent their use.
Arthur
Hsien Ko
Haggar (Also on the list twice)

4099

You may not believe that C.Viper is top tier, or high tier…

I’m sorry but there is ZERO reasons why C.Viper is a possible low tier. That’s likely saying that MC2 Anakaris and Dhalism are low tier because nobody can use them. Just because nobody can use them does not dispute their tools as an character.

Nevermind that C.Viper has more tools than 99% of the low tiers.

4100

I never said that even though some were insinuating that I did. I didnt even say she wasnt hard. I was just wondering about her because I have played probably zero vipers, never mind a good one.