MvC3 Actual Balance/Potential Tiers Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
3241

I’m sorry but even top tournament players saying something is still speculation.

Justin wong noel brown and keits just got their asses handed to them by humbag floe and some other guy whose name i do not know. Does that mean i should value any of their opinions over any one else’s? Fuck no. If they give logical discussions about why one character is better than another then that holds some weight.

And if you, I or some other no name on this forum gives a logical argument about why another character is better than another, that should hold weight too.

Wolverine is good. I didn’t need Justin or floe to tell me shit that I knew in week 1. We all play in our own scenes, we all know what happens. At this point in the metagame, I dont think Wolverine is figured out, and sure, that plays a big reason to why i think he’s top 5.

But until someone is shutting down berserker slash mixups consistently, I don’t see how someone can just toss my argument to the side. Wolverine can kill all characters in two combos (well most characters can so this point is moot) and the landing from the first combo immediately puts you into 50/50 mixup (thats pretty good.) I’d say if i can connect once and have a 50% chance of killing a character, those are decent odds.

I also believe that his mixup is better than magneto’s and dante’s, both of who are believed to be in the top 5.

Granted, magneto and dante are more versatile in that they can zone and do some other things, but, I don’t think that should take away from what Wolverine does better than anyone in the cast (arguable).

Seriously, I respect the pros and their opinions, but this thread should be about all of us voicing our own opinions.

@Bloodninja
I like using deadpool but I think he’s in 11-15. in my opinion he’s the second easiest character to DHC into, he has a coupple of B level assists, has strong versatility, but lacks damage output, life, and speed. many of his moves are slow and put him at a disadvantage and he has poor mixup ( although he does have teleport and overhead).

I think his zoning is like, somewhere near the top but i think it is too easy to get in on him.

3242

So basically you’re sure that a character you don’t use much is top 8 based on alot of shitty Dooms you’ve watched on stream? Fact is, there hasn’t been a single truly impressive Doom on stream. If you knew the character at all, this would be obvious. Don’t take this as me saying the potential is there for him to be tops though, it’s not. He’s upper mid at best but has some very good assists which is where I assume people get confused.

3243

i still dont get why people think Iron Man is trash hes only negatives are
-some what complex combos
-no safe dhc in
-can’t start or end the dhc glitch because capcom was lazy and gave him basically the same damn super

that’s literally it

edit: and yes i do play Iron Man alot so i know what im talking about

3244

Doom is my favorite character and I don’t think his potential has been unlocked yet. There is something about the dash cancellable normals that I think can create much more pressure than what we see from most dooms on stream. However I agree that he is upper mid at best. At least at this point.

3245

Who said anything about streams? Playing against often and occasional lab time gives me an idea of his exceptional tools. I understand that any time he starts a combo within normal jump height and has a character after him he’s going to hit 1 million damage while building lots of meter, I understand that the hit boxes on normals aside from crouch B are amazing, I understand the fact that he can continue offense and thwart all attempts to pushblock with dash canceling, I understand that his back throw gets him over 500K and builds him enough gauge to level 3, I understand that a lot of his tools can be used to counterpoke other good tools such as Wesker gun, EM disruptor and trijumps. If only the main character someone played was viable in defining a character’s placement there would be no tier lists. Thus why in better official tier lists from games like Super Turbo take the opinions of people who play various characters of all the match ups they have to fight and compile the results into a single list akin to super nohoho fighter ii x: Super Diagram Turbo - Version 1 I play on streams more than I watch them. Doom’s an excellent character, just not an easy one to use.

3246

People really bother me with that “don’t bother discussing tiers until the pros tell us what the fuck is up” rhetoric. The community is just as integral to the growth and understanding of the meta as the pros we see and seemingly idolize enough that appealing to authority becomes a valid argument to some people. Especially in this age when everything discovered is widely known to the entire community in an instant, with people breaking the game over and over again in pursuit of new “technology.”

The knowledge and theory of matchups between two characters or teams have been steadfastly analyzed from multiple angles and perspectives by the community where if we came up with a hard list right now, tournament results probably wouldn’t be too far off from it all things considered. Unless there is a meta-shifting glitch discovered or patch from Capcom, what you see now is pretty much what you get.

With access to frame data and literally thousands of matches at the highest level to analyze, shit settles exponentially faster than the Marvel 2 age of fighters.

3247

Clock ? =)

yeah…i dont think anyone can deny how good clock is with doom.

3248

He’s really not that great with him in MvC3.

3249

He seemed solid to me. What would you consider an exemplary Doom?

3250

Max ;D

but no, seriously: Clockw0rk.

3251

you forgot some stuff…
*his launcher has no range, horrible recovery if blocked or whiff, also his launcher cant be combo from a straight Light>special like most characters can. He needs like a new animation for his launcher…
*cr. H (missile) cant be cancel into proton like in mvc2, also it does not go fullscreen b/c it goes diagonally down when the missile is used…
*Smart bomb is a dp motion…
*his abcs combo whiffs a lot if you dont go from cr. l >c. M >standing H and it whiff a lot if your not close to your opponent…

and angled proton cannon is ok…they should of gave him that red laser from the iron man movie as a hyper…

3252

Ironman just seems like an infinitely worse Mags with more health to make up for it.

But it doesn’t.

3253

Nothing that we’ve seen yet. No one takes full advantage of his combo potential or cancels ground normals into dashes to circumvent pushblock or even tri-jumps with him properly.

That’s essentially my point though; if his his tools really were that exceptional, people would have flocked to him, learned him properly and be wrecking shit with him already, but they’re not. Right now they just play him for his assists. Whenever he’s on point, you usually see a lame zoning game and the odd shitty damage corner Buktooth loops. More often than not, Doom gets his teeth kicked in by Wolverine and co.

The thing about having your opponent block an easily telegraphed attack to only then start your offense is that it’s inherently flawed precisely because of pushblocking. Consider that Doom’s ground normals are just “ok”; he’s slow (6 frames apart from stand L) and they don’t have exceptional hitboxes. When you do get a normal blocked, you’re hoping to time your dash cancel immediately after the pushblock then jump and go for a tri jump mixup? I’d like to know right now how many of you can properly put this into practice in your matches? You’ll time it right maybe once every 10 attempts, whereas the opponent has a much larger window to vary the timing on his pushblock. If you do it at the wrong time, you’ll be pushed out even further than usual because the momentum from your dash will be reversed on you. So you’re now at the opposite end of the stage and your opponent can run away all day since Doom does not deal well with that. Frankly, I’m not even sure he’d be at frame advantage most of the time; that’s certainly not the case if he doesn’t cancel his ground dash into a jump.

He also doesn’t deal well with rushdown, come to think of it.

3254

I nominate Duck Strong for Doom god.

3255

lol. I love my bitch.

The thing about Morrigan is I play Trish/Storm/Amaterasu. I swap out Ammy sometimes just for the SentDrones. Since Trish/Storm is my main Morrigan on anchor is primarily for meter boost. On point she doesnt benefit from the assist as well as she would if I played a more Morrigan centralized team such as Morrigan/Sent/Storm.

Perhaps I should play Morrigan/Sent/Storm or Morrigan/Sent/Trish

Its just extremely hard to make them respect you without those drones. Mags, Taskmaster and Wesker can eat her up…quick.

3256

he’s launcher is bad but it hits if you know what your doing

you can get a full combo from c.h into proton cannon

why would something being a dp motion be bad? are peoples execution that bad they can’t do a dp motion?

why is it bad that you have to stand in his magic series?

everything you have said he is that you need to engage your brain to play him , that don’t make him bad , just means you.need to know what your doing , something you should be.doing with every character

3257

How this top 5 is even debatable is beyond me.

Magneto
Wesker
Dante
Phoenix
Amaterasu

3258

Iron man is bad because he has a terrible abare game. Simply put Iron Man cannot convert “random” hits into good damage. He has to fish for a specific combo starter, in a specific position. Wolverine is good because he’s the exact opposite - any random hit from Wolverine converts into excellent damage, and potentially a character death. This is also why Wolverine often outperforms several of the characters that seems to be just better than he is on paper.

3259

I’m not really a big fan of her meter assist. I usually run Taskmaster or Wesker on point (I tier-whore it up), and they build plenty of meter on their own. But, even if did I have a character on point that eats meter, I still wouldn’t want Morrigan on my team. I think that a good beam or pressure assist is far more valuable than her meter assist.

Most characters with mediocre assists can be ran on point and the mediocre assists are no longer an issue (Wolverine, Spider-Man), but Morrigan on point just isn’t that good, since she kind of needs a lot of meter to do her more damaging combos.

I think people have mentioned how amazing it would be if Astral Vision remained active after tagging her out. Her Soul Fist assist would be pretty solid, and I’m not sure why Capcom wouldn’t allow this to happen. I don’t see how Drones or Hidden Missiles are any different from a Soul Fist sandwich.

If Capcom patched that in, I’d probably add Morrigan to my team. The only thing really keeping me away from her are her bland assists.

. . .

Seriously?

I agree that Iron Man has his problems, but holding DP motions against a character is a bit much.

3260

Hypothetically speaking, how good would Phoenix be if she had 750k health and Dark Phoenix mode was turned into a level 3 timed super ala Jill’s Madbeast? (and maybe the X-factor bonuses were toned down in Dark Phoenix mode)