True, Clockwork shows that well.
He has no problem spending meter and still have enough for phoenix when the time is ready. Most of the time.
I like Mr. X’s idea in regards to grading a character; here is my two cents on Tron Bonne:
Out of 10
Building Meter: 9
[LIST]
[]Tron IMO is one of the best batteries in the game. Her combos are often long enough (especially paired with assists) to build any meter she may potentially waste. Of course she needs to land hits (or get hit) in order to build meter and needs assists to cover most of her unsafe attacks.
[/LIST]
Using Meter: 8.5
[LIST]
[]As stated above Trons battery potential is quite good and she does not have a lot of hyper chip potential, so burning meter is often not a concern and it can be saved for combos (which build plenty of meter) and DHC. [/LIST]
Supers: 4
[LIST]
[]Lunch Rush is a good strong super and has lots of combo potential, but really that is about it. It has relatively slow start-up and hard to hit outside of a combo. Also slow on the emergency DHC start-up.
[]King Kobun is large and covers a lot of room and does fairly decent damage but is slow and somewhat difficult to combo without a beacon shot. The start-up is slow it typically makes a poor DHC.
[]Shakedown Mixer is a great super when it hits, it requires Tron to be up close and it’s often used as a tick or an unblockable set-up. Many people can see it coming and it burns 3 meters and typically it’s a gamble. But it does some good damage and can be surprising at times.[/LIST]
Assists:10
[LIST]
[]Gustaff Flame over shadows her other two assists by a wide margin. Although he other two assists are no slouches, Gustaff is seemingly invincible due to it’s small hit box making it very difficult to punish on reaction without super. It’s kind of sad to see so many players using her just as an assist and nothing more.
[/LIST]
DHC into: 6.5
[LIST]
[]For the most part Lunch Rush places Tron in close proximity to DHC into virtually anything in the game. Because of the nature of the super enemies are forced to stay low to the ground making most DHC’s safe and damaging. King Kobun when it hits also has a lot of corner potential but more often then not brings them to far away from Tron to DHC into any close Hypers. Often the juggle state can cause problems with characters bouncing out of the DHC.
[/LIST]
DHC out of: 4
[LIST]
[]I give this a low score because of her super start-up and limited range. Lunch Rush is semi reliable and King Kobun just takes way to long. Often I burn another Hyper just to get to my third character to ensure that the DHC is successful.[/LIST]
Effectiveness with assists: 7
Effectiveness alone: 4
[LIST]
[*]Tron without the aid of assists can really struggle to effectively punish and get in making spammy trap teams very dominant. With assists he possibilities with instant overheads and unblockables become much greater and offense is generated a lot easier.
[/LIST]
Special Notes/Final Verdict: On average I would say dependent on how she is played she ranges from a questionable 6 to a solid 7. She is very reliant on teammates to do substantial damage and has trouble generating offense without them. Many of her normals are slow and unsafe on block. Although she can jump cancel out of Gustaff Flame and c. H is +4 on block. No matter what way you look at her Tron is always stronger with a team and Gustaff is a great assist that benefits the whole cast.
If anyone has any differing opinions or would like to add some comments about her game plan let me know. This is only based on a months worth of experience in MVC3, but it’s very easy to weigh negative findings vs. positive ones.
It’s definitely not a straw man no matter how you look at it. Straw man arguments attack an argument that isn’t the same as what the opponent is arguing. They modify it to make it weaker and then attack it.
There are actually claims going around that Captain America’s infinite is what’s making him good from possibly being bad. Bringing up the fact that characters with infinites can still be bad wholly debunks that.
Time will tell if Captain America does pan out, and his infinite certainly helps him at least to some degree. However, people saying that him having an infinite does not automatically make him good are absolutely right.
Please don’t incorrectly deploy fallacies. It really makes you look like you don’t have a real position and just want to look smart.
I’m wondering why people are rating Ironman low. I’m certainly not very knowledgable about this game compared to others, but I don’t see how he could be anything other than top with everything that he has.
He has crap range on his launcher, to the point where unless you’re training mode close to the opponent it will miss. He has no forward momentum normals or specials do combat advancing guard. He can’t cancel his dash into attacks until the 11th frame, which results in poor wavedashing and slow offense (I think only him, Doom, Ryu and Hulk can’t cancel their dashes). Also, his BnB seems to be kinda of funky in the sense they’re not reliable and it’s hard to come up with a universal one, that works on the entire cast. Proton Cannon is nowhere comparable to other beam hypers, being to slow to combo into itself with x-factor or to punish stuff from far away.
I’d say he definetly isn’t a rushdown character, and people haven’t figured out how he should be played yet.
He barely works lol
Applying arbitrary #'s to aspects of peoples game w/o comparison is a waste of everyone’s time.
Tron building meter “8.5” means absolutely nothing to me.
The argument that was made for CapAm was, basically: Captain America won’t suck (and this is a prediction) because any clean hit will result in meterless death. It’s also the case that if another team mate gets any air combo and air tags him in, or if they use meter to alpha counter Captain in the infinite is in play.
That is not the same as saying ‘Captain America is good because he has an infinite’ for obvious reasons we’ve already covered, namely that the majority of infinites tend to be unreliable, situational and unpractical in actual high level play. So taking this reasoning and debunking it by talking about Servebot infinites and the kind of shit that’s only possible against Daimon in the corner with a programmable pad in KOF '97 etc etc is a strawman argument- it’s attempting to disprove something that was never asserted. Yeah, loads of sucky characters have had sucky infinites, but what has that got to do with characters with (apparently) highly connectible, easy to execute and most of all practical supers that don’t require any special circumstances (meter, specific assists, positioning etc).
So… yeah, that’s why I see it as a straw man argument. If someone was to say “well actually, Iron Man had this really practical infinite in MVC2 and he sucked balls” then it would be a legitimate counter- except that Iron Man didn’t suck, and that was mainly to do with his infinite.
Captain America might end up balls, but the only way I see that happening is if lots of other characters get legit touch of death combos without meter/XF and we see a XSF situation where having an infinite is no longer an asset above everyone else, even if it’s a really practical one.
tl;dr- my point was never that having an infinite means you don’t suck, so pointing out that having an infinite doesn’t mean you don’t suck doesn’t really address the reasoning.
Applying arbitrary letters to aspects of peoples game w/o comparison is a waste of everyone’s time.
Ibuki “B” means absolutely nothing to me.
Integers 0-10 would just mean there are 11 tiers. Graduating that some just increases the number of tiers. You could say that Tron is A-tier in meter building instead if you wanted.
The problem is that the standard is completely subjective and not being compared to other characters in a way that matters(if at all).
When you say Ibuki is B tier on a matchup chart is fairly easy to see why she is because her total matchups add up to put her above average in the cast, but not too high. There is something at least vaguely empirical going on even if the individual matchup numbers could be slightly off depending on one persons opinion.
Don’t read the post then. The same thing can be said about your “list”.
Establishing the standard to compare to is a whole new argument. Who is the best meter builder to compare to? The worst? and then repeat for each category.
Actually, after each letter on my “list” there’s a short description which describes exactly what that grouping means.
So there.
A,B,C don’t mean anything really, just as spacers. Cuz people love to put God Tier, S++, or whatever the hell they want.
Honestly, this thread is just a bunch of freestyling thoughts and opinions that will be virtually impossible to relate to each other. That is why we need some sort of structure if we really do intend to get a conversation with any sort of order going.
Some people are posting their “lists”, others characters ratings (on different scales and different categories), Some just general thoughts about certain strong/weaker characters.
If anything is going to come from this we need to figure out how everything will be organized and not just spit out thoughts we are brainstorming. Everything I posted above is relevant and is relevant to the discussion, however, it will be hard to compare anything if people are going by their own guidelines.
True, but it is kind of easy to figure out when someone is using a scale out of 10 that “10” would qualify as the best and “1” as the opposite. I’m not saying that the post was indeed groundbreaking or anything, but this thread is just a clusterfuck of people giving opinions and perspective in their own forms that is hard to relate to a lot of other peoples. So I just felt like it was a little unnecessary to harp at someone trying to give an insight in a thread that isn’t organized whatsoever… since other people are doing practically the same thing.
If you want to rank them by meter / damage / super / ease of getting hits you could just list them by the numbers options.
For example (these are made up numbers)
Meter gain: 2.5 bars per combo average.
Damage: Average damage of the characters BNB. This is a numeric value you can actually track. IE: Tron does 600-800k in one combo usually off random hits. Off throws she gets X amount.
Meter usage: Low, her supers aren’t that great and have little utility other than to end combos. Her level 3 is good though and is useful when paired with xfactor out of block stun.
Assists: How many roles do their assists fulfill and how applicable are they in a real match? When you compare something like Zero’s Hadangeki vs Ammy’s cold star, it’s pretty obvious which is better, same for Tron. What all roles does it fulfill and how does it help rush vs zoning vs combo utility vs mix ups.
Synergy: IE: How easy is it to DHC into / out of this character. Obviously characters with beam supers or Ammy / Storm supers that hit full screen and people with special “activation” supers are going to be good here.
Mobility: What are your options, walk / dash speed, etc etc. Magneto will be higher here than say… Haggar.
Then there’s other stuff too. Safety, mix up options, range of their pokes, etc etc. Hell, even ease of use (sup Sentinel). I think all of that factored together accurately could get you a pretty good representation of how the characters stack up, but even then you don’t get such a good representation, since this is a team game.
IE: IMO Hsien Ko is ass 1v1 but she could end up on every team just because of her assist. Does that mean she’s necessarily a good character? Not stand alone, but when factored into team dynamics, it gets a whole lot more complicated, so Marvel is a pretty tough game to peg a tier list for.
Not sure about cap that infinite stuff is pretty cool but I’ve yet to see any gameplay with someone rocking that 1 combo no meter kill. If you had asked me who needed an infinite not to be bottom tier I would have said felica but then changed my mind to captin America so I’m glad it’s cap and not wesker who has the infinite. If people get that cap infinite down then he is a bit more powerfull than most but hey this is a two touch kill game from most the cast so it’s not like he has much of an advantage.
Dante is deff going to be top tier. Reasons?
- All the videos
Don’t forget the below average health but besides that I’m more than willing to believe that he has the best level 3 hyper.
People are too wowed these days at combo videos and infinites and what not. They are more interested in what is possible and not practical. I really don’t see too much use right now from the inifinite… people totally forget about scaling too. Infinites are only practical IF there is some sort of follow up to it. Cap’s infinite won’t change where he is placed drastically at all. Im not saying the infinite is pointless but people hear the word “infinite” and instantly cream their pants without actually thinking about how practical it is.