Iam, I disagree that cl.st.lk is just useless. It is actually worse than useless. It just messes with the flow of button presses, often causing one to miss a simple chain. It is so bad that I purposely have to structure my close strings in a way that avoids the move ever coming out. So useless, no. Harmful, yes.
I am having trouble really finding a niche for close LK. I wanted to buff it but everything I do ends up feeling either redundant or too powerful. The best choice is probably just to remove the stupid thing but since that is just not happening I’m not going to even indulge the idea in the mod. I can reduce the damage and make it +4 so you can use it as part of your bnb but then it’s just c.LP but shittier. I can just make it +4 on hit without damage reductions but then it’s too much damage and just becomes the new bnb. The best choice is to leave it as is, a reward for plinking it into s.MK as a little extra damage (c.lp s.lk cs.mk is 1 frame and like 20 extra damage on your bnb). I’m not really sure what else to do with it. It has some potential in kara mixups (c.lp s.lk kara throw) but beyond that I agree it’s a trash move.
Most characters, even the best ones, just have dud normals. This is Gouken’s, we just gotta live with it. We’re pretty lucky it’s really his only terrible normal. The only other one anywhere near this useless is s.LP, which is IMO absolute garbage.
I considered giving it a few more active frames (changing out some of the recovery) so he could use it to stuff low normals from say, Dhalsim, but Gouken is already really good in that match-up and it isn’t even special cancellable (and wouldn’t do much if it was) so welp. I also considered making it hit twice as a target combo with far LK (was this close to going ahead with this one) but it messes too much with Gouken’s core weaknesses and who focuses that close to Gouken anyway?
In kenpo, that move is called a kick down and its intended to “stuff” another person’s kicks or stop their forward movement. If the move was 3 frames, had a ton of pushback, but couldn’t combo, I would find it a great tool for creating space…
It should at least be cancel-able and chain-able like his other lights.
+4 would be great, but even if you could just chain or cancel it, it would have worth.
In a perfect world they would just remove cl. st. lk and make far st. lk the only version and it have a 4 frame start up.
like far st hk
I guess if it were done the way i suggested it would be very similar to cl.mk so it would be redundant, unless…what if it acted like a tech. Both characters are pushed back to neutral.
Progress report.
Recoded tatsus again. In addition to the changes from before, I altered the launch height of the first hit of every tatsu and then stuck a subtle vacuum on the second hit. It looks very natural. The end result is that tatsus always catch opponents (even Adon now!) and FADCing a tatsu forward will now never cross under. Very happy with this one. Also managed to finally change the recovery of his tatsu she can’t be reversal’d on hit in the corner (151-180 from 151-170). 10 frames is a big change but it’s still so laughably punshable on whiff that I don’t care.
After some playtesting I reduced cs.MK and c.MK damage to 50. MK as it is, is a very very good normal. It is quite necessary. c.MK’s start-up is back to normal.
Close LK is now chainable. You don’t really get much out of it, but there you go.
Still working on demon flip grab. There’s no way to make the opponent stay on the ground longer without altering a global hard knockdown. If you guys know someone that can help me with this one, let me know… lol
Maybe Blacktoof would know, or have some insight.
Hi, I’m still working on this. My laptop died and I built a new computer at Christmas. Unfortunately I don’t have a video card yet so recording Video on the new computer is impossible. When I get my video card either later this month or next month, I’ll finish it.
I’m not too concerned with time, because even though Combofiend announced they will patch, I have a difficult time believing it will be soon. 1.05 will almost certainly come after this year’s Evo, and almost certainly not in the next couple of months.
It also gives me time to finish polishing everything and try to figure out how to fix the damn demon flip grab. I’m going to use omega to see what Capcom did.
Did you try using Fraps? If you have a PC, you shouldn’t need a capture card for it and I’ve seen a few FREE versions of it.
Keep churning on it broham, its likely if someone does a gd enuff job ,that gouken could make it to the silver screen so to speak.
We were talking about hybridizing across all versions and making the perfect gouken…im eager to see what u got goin
I already use fraps. The problem is that I’m using my processors’ on-board video to render the game and already can’t play at higher resolutions than 1280xSomething before it slows down to under 60 FPS. Add in fraps’ additional GPU strain and the game really starts chugging.
After the 1.04 patch (in which Gouken received no meaningful changes), I don’t think it’s difficult to argue now that he’s bottom 10 if not worse. Veloc1raptor said on CrossCounter that he has a hard time recommending Gouken to anyone because of how uphill it is in 1.03, and then a bunch of worse characters got buffed, including most of the match-ups Gouken wins (Hugo, Dhalsim, T. Hawk, that sort of thing).
It’s a good time to release a video like this because the 1.04 release shook things up and Gouken remains largely the same.
Wondering how difficult it would be to make a target combo out of far roundhouse into overhead… Was thinking that could help his midrange game especially against focus attacks…, have lk tatsu. Hitbox extended a tad lower and maybe give it a frames of invincibilty. Hp Palm go back to traveling like it did in vanilla outside of a combo I rarely use that to catch hp.hado juggles anymore. Take away high low mid guess work from kongo. I’m taking a guess on using it, why make me guess even more to make me have to wonder why I have to low kongo a dive kick. Would love to see a throw kongo… I don’t care if it did no damage just reset and get someone off of me. Be to godlike if it acted like a tenshin when someone goes to grab and the get put into a combo state ha lol. Air parry should just be like his kongo in the air. Sorry I guess it’s more of a rant rather than helpfull suggestions. I don’t know much about programming, actually anything about it at all. Just really tired of no one from capcom addressing his short comings besides the new ex tatsu which with out ex his wake up is non existent and without 3 bars that move puts me at risk of hit 300+ damage and close to a stun state. Eh… Maybe this was the wrong thread for this. Anyway, I really appreciate all the time effort and energy you’ve thrown into old man, appears to be more than capcom has done lately
^ Air kongo would be broken Lololol. Maybe boss mode Gouken should have it.
Anytime he did GF you’d shit your pants… Gouken flips in and parties/kongo>you cant hit him (and it’s active til ground), most armor breakers and will to dive kick (any thing else loses to air kongo), you stand there > he does gf grab and get chopped… Just jump away and hope he he doesn’t slide, dive kick, or land earlier than you do to EX Tatsu you for jumping away or just crouch and hope hope he doesn’t grab you…
Now I think there could be an ex option off of air parry to absorb 2 hits nstead of 1.
As far as hp palm air hado snipe, Gouken literally had a meterless fullscreen juggle, we kinda lost that for improvements in the up close game. Though I miss it, it was tolerable. What made it even worse is palm being completely ass with the forward movement and 90 damage (omega mode lp palm is gdlk, maybe slightly less range than that). EX Palm should have full fireball invincibility though, as well as its invincibility shifted to the 3rd frame (you can still throw/hit him on start up). I think it used to be this way as well or similar unless the srk/eh data was wrong.
Yea def a palm fix, extra armor on air parry…
Look at akuma and oni got new toys as did ryu and evil, gouken even with omega cant keep up
Why would air kongo be broken? Would still lose to armor breaks and reversals empty jumps. I mean shit akuma can now throw ex air fireballs to stuff jump attacks against his demon flip and to stuff some grounded anti airs and it was almost always risky to ground base aa akumas flip any way. They gave him another tool to help out his flip game with that air fireball. I’ve had my j.mp, my go to move to stuff his flip, crushed by that air fireball while he is demon flipping.
I think it would be broken as it is bc its active until the ground. That’s a long time for a kongo to be out there. Most armor breakers aren’t set to beat air parry… There are exceptions like tiger knee, but they also lose to dive kick or grab in most cases.
Air Parry/Kongo losing to wake up reversals is a good balance b/c you don’t just want people jumping in for free all day or just kongo’ing. When it’s after a trade or after they are coming out of block is bs imo, in those cases if it doesn’t break armor then it shouldn’t beat kongo. But considering what other characters are able to do, I might not be too outlandish to have the move not lose to moves if it doesn’t break armor period, but I really worry about anyone playing Gouken just having a kongo party… so that’s why I think they should lose to wake up reversals to give opponents time to stand I’m not really for adding extra recovery on the move to compensate b/c he’s punishable as is on all of his specials.
Akumas df palm is active for only 2 frames, and air parry is until start til landing so being able to absorb 2-3 hits would seem more natural.
The only way I could see air kongo being balanced is it would have to have the same active frames like ground kongo. Not until the ground… That’s what I was referring to as being broken. So Gouken would actually kongo instead of air parry and if he doesn’t get it right he can get hit on the way down or something, along with his 6 frame landing.
It’s tough with moves like Kongo b/c you don’t want Gouken to end up doing all the stuff that we complain other characters can do. Essentially being able to do high reward moves for very low risk.
TBH, if we all had our way with Gouken he’d end up having 850 health. lol.
EX version of air parry with extra armor changes many mu’s with 2 hit fireballs, even the ones that have 2 hit jumping attacks.
I think if Gouken could either drop a little faster and/or land at 4 frames once air parry is activated by the opponent it would operate a lot better.
Gouken can easily be broken with the wrong adjustment. Lol. And since no pro really plays him it’s hard for CAPCOM to get a solid pulse.
Everything here.
Even just the changes I made could already make him super good. Super good is great, that’s what we want.
Gouken isn’t a good character but it’s easy to forget everything that he does have going for him. His damage output is already insane, his divekicks are really hard to anti air for a lot of characters, EX Tatsu is constantly being complained about everywhere, it’s nearly impossible to jump on him. There’s a lot of stuff that Gouken can do well. I think we are best-served asking for the stuff that “almost works” and “should” work being improved, rather than making a bunch of core changes to his moves.
Idk, I think Gouken is a good character. I think he needs Capcom to stop changing the rules every 6 months and buffing other characters. I think characters like Elf, Ibuki, Akuma, Viper and a few others ruin the game. Actually, if they made the game less dependent on guessing and more dependent on reads, I’d be a happy Gouken. He’s a beast.