I changed far MK to activate further out and reduced the damage somewhat.
So basically after Gouken does 2 jabs we’ll still be having to do a 1 frame link from jab to combo off the light attack?
This in exchange for cl. st mk to activate further out but once he’s out of range we can only chain and un-plinkable 1 frame link with lp?
I think the goal is to have him combo. Goukens lp at +4 does a lot more and helps in more situations.
the damage on cr. mk could just be tone down. It currently does 70… You could make it 55 or 50 if you are worried about combo potential.
He doesn’t have a DP, I think he should at least have a 2 frame link from his light attacks. Everybody has it except him. And he’s he can only link short range palm and ex tatsu.
He’d still need 3 Bars for a safe EX Tatsu FADC on wake.
Normall tatsu would whiff/drop on crouching opponents or when they are out of range.
And It won’t connect to EX Palm
I personally think he needs both the cr. lp at +4 on hit and the extra range on cl. st. mk.
Nerf cr. mk if you need. It’s rarely used anyway, and I’d be glad to give a way 15 or 20 damage on that move if it means Gouken can combo effectively from lights.
This is my #1 buff request. LOL.
Even Sagat has 2 fame links… a bunch of em.
I SMH every match that I get 2 jabs on someone and I end up chaining out b/c of the 1 frame link that I can’t plink after 2 jabs.
Poor Gouken. They give you no dp, you get grabbed around the place, and you have to 1 frame link your lights.
Even Hugo, T. Hawk, and Zangief can link from lights… but the Master has to 1 frame link from cr. lp and it’s absurd. (Not your fault @risemix)
He’d stand a better chance in some of these matches and it doesn’t over compensate for his other flaws.
But that’s just me
Cool, I’ll see what I can do. But we’ll 100%* have* to lose something to get a link like that. It’s just too much dmg atm. 
I think the “best” choice is to shave 10 damage off of cr.MK. What that will mean is you can still do the link but there’s not much point in doing it because cs.MK is easier.
^ yeah and crouching/pushback will limit tatsu cancels so most of the use will be from lp palm, ex tatsu, or things that need 2 or 3 bars for… In most cases 3.
I mean it’s nothing that he can’t Already do now, just. 2 frame link instead of a 1 framer in respect to current ability. If cr mk can be be balanced within I think that’s a very good change.
IMO cr lp +4 and cr mp +5 (or whatever you did to fix) and less push back on cl st mp are the most needed changes if I had to pick 3.
it’s better to just learn the timing of the 1-frame link because it’s such a simple combo - it’s always from cr. LP to another cr. LP.
it won’t make it air-proof to relax it to 2 frames. If you’re stressed out while you’re inputting the link, then it won’t magically give you a 100% success ratio with a 2-frame window rather than 1.
Just learn the timing.
I haven’t fully got it down yet myself either.
And I wonder why…
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how about far mk? maybe giving us combos off this takes away the need for cl mk to have so much utility. You can make cl mk>far mk and cl mk>cr mk which I think would breath life into some shit the old man never had … add a little hit stun on far mk for link to tatsus or lpalm??? nerfing hitboxes as you see fit…but these buttons should work together better , and he should have some sort of target like combo?
not to derail shit you two are off on a good one right now…my popcorn is running low…
cs.MK can’t have any additional hitstun because I don’t want it to combo to fireball. cs.MK->fs.MK might indeed be cute but I can’t do it without giving gouken fireball.
I just can’t disagree more. One frame links are a necessary evil of fighting game balance. But if you have the opportunity to make surgical changes to a character that can ease up on a 1f link without causing additional problems then you should. I’m not talking about making jab +5 on hit (where you’d get c.LP s.MP x Fireball FADC ownage) I’m talking about +4 where the consequences are small with one or two minor changes.
I’m also not aware of any other character in SF4 that has a one-frame low jab link that ends in one of two unsafe specials. Gouken’s jab link is not unlearnable, that’s not the issue. The issue is that it straddles an uncomfortable line between chaining it and getting nothing, and being too slow and being -100 on block. Even the best Gouken players aren’t doing this link when anything is on the line. Even if you manage to perform the link, it’s only 119 damage meterless on crouching opponents. Doing a 5 hit jab chain is like 137 damage and leaves you in a better position.
Even with my mod’s adjustments, crouching reduces the damage you can do by between 50 and 60. That’s balanced assuming the damage is good in both scenarios. ATM it isn’t, it’s almost never worth doing.
The only way far mk would work in that fashion would be to make it like Oni’s. And he only has 1 version, he doesn’t have a close and far version.
Gouken’s Far mk also has a 7 frame start up. Oni’s st. mk has a 6 frame start up.
So even if Gouken’s st. mk was changed to resemble Oni’s he could only combo it after a jump in or cl. st. mp.
In order to achieve cl. mk > far mk Goukens cl. st mk would have to be +7 at least, even if we changed it to exactly like Oni’s it would be have to be +6.
Cl. st. mk being +6 on hit, would open up stupid shit like. lp, cl. st. mk, sweep lp, cl. st. mk, cr. hp > whatever we wanted.
The goal is to still have Gouken “earn” his EX Palm combos but allow him to still combo into his light attacks and get more solid use from cr. mp > hado.
By doing this, Gouken can still lay the hurt on when he get’s meter for EX Tatsu from lights… and it’s a win/win b/c it knocks the person to the other side of the screen and Gouken can’t just keep the pressure up on them and immediately stun them as their stun gauge will start dropping and Gouken loses meter during the exchange.
He’d need even 3 bars to EX Tatsu > FADC opponents.
Damage wise a hit confirm with EX Tatsu on a croucher would look like this…
-lp, lp, (100%) xx EX TAtsu (80% first hit) > FADC (Ultra 60%)
Another punch would drop this Combo another 20%
-lp, lp (100%), lp (80%) XX EX Tatsu (70% first hit) > FADC Ultra (50%)
And 10% every other hit you can tack on…
And lp, lp, xx Ex Tatsu should be 200 damage… as EX Tatsu alone is already 200 damage.
-20, 20 (100%) xx 200 (80%)
Keep in mind this is all stuff he can currently do, but the 1 frame link from jab either determines if you get it 100% correct or if you get max punished. Thus why no one really uses it, b/c it’s not worth the risk.
Here is what my vision was of final mod was core wise for what I thought would make him utilize the things he currently has, fix character hit box issues, and allows for better meta options after landing GF/DF Grab.
- Cr. lp +4 on hit (currently +3 on hit)
- Cr. mp +5 (currently +4 on hit)
- Reduce Push Back on cl. st. mp
4* After landing GF/DF Grab recovery “On Ground” recovery from 12 to 6.
Context: Allows Gouken to strategize offensively or defensely after landing the attack.
Nerf
-cr mk From 70 dmg to 60 dmg
^ These are my only core asks. 
@Risemix I changed some of the verbiage and added what you had earlier…
looks dope…I want to play…soon. I will have to get a copy of usf4 for pc now.
great breakdown tho guys
I miss the old HP Palm.
Can you try an experiment?
MP Palm start-up to 13 frames from 16, so it’s the same as HK Tatsu and so combos from cr.LK, is -4 on block from -6, and replaces LP Palm so we can make room for the ol’ HP Palm.
30% of our air sniping fireballs are left with doing mere 55 damage, while the old HP Palm was a 100% reliable follow-up combo, literally every single time.
On that note, I’d wish to see the 120, 130 and 140 damage values return. 90, 120 and 130 just doesn’t feel right, at all.
I like the current lp palm. I would only ask for more reach/safer.
Cr.lp being +4 is a great change.
Tatsu juggling higher would be welcome for fadc
Less recovery on air tatsu would be welcome
Less recovery on flip grab, flip party
The only extra zoning tool that should help Gouken at this point is cr. mp being moved from +4 to +5 on hit. And its’ not even an extra tool b/c it’s still not a true block string.
Capcom nerfed HP Palm/Full Screen Snipe b/c the community requested it. (It could have been done differently/ but that’s neither here or there.. *the focus should be spend on making the Ultra Balance better vs. reverting to SF4/Super changes.
*
If lp palm gets more forward movement and the push back to add the move would work as intended and good players could space it out to be safe.
Check 1:28 at the below video (pause on 1:30). The hit box on lp palm is actually very very good, it just needs more forward movement to work as intended. 90 damage isn’t great, but for a move that is safe on block and breaks armor… if you want more damage, then cancel from mp to mp/ex palm.
-MP palm shouldn’t connect from light attacks, when we currently do light attacks (lp), lp palm and EX Tatsu (200 damage) and Tatsu only works on certain characters if they are crouching or out of range. We just need to be able to do this better, thus lp needs to be +4 on hit. (nothing different from his current abilities, it just allows for an unplinkable 2 frame link from jab instead of an unplinkable 1 frame link)
For what NG1313 proposed… Mp palm connecting on cr. lk and being -4 on block could potentially be safe on block b/c of active frames. And if palm hit with the later active frames we’d be looking at palm being -1 on block in some scenarios not including added push back. I disagree with proposing this change as we will have to alter other things and reverting back to SF4/Super.
Again, zoning isn’t Gouken’s issue. It’s all momentum based and could be solved quite easily without breaking the rules and keeping his current weaknesses in tact. You want to keep the weaknesses there, but just allow him to do the things that he can currently do, just better.
THE CORE CHANGES
**
Combo drops- **
lp palm more forward movement (increase forward movement)
cr. lp being +3 on hit instead of +4 (make +4 on hit)
cl. st. mp pushing back too far (reduce push back)
cr. mp being +4 on hit instead of +5 (make +5 on hit)
tatsu fall out (fix hit box issue where it drops and make all hits between the first and last do hard knock down) *See Oni
**ON GROUND RECOVERY **-
Successful GF/DF Grab (Decrease decrease on ground recovery from 12 to 6) (I actually think this is more important than tatsu/air tatsu changes but both are needed)
Tatsu/air tatsu (Decrease on ground recovery)
None of these changes alter what Gouken can currently do ATM, it just makes it more effective which should be the goal of appropriately balancing a character to perform more consistently while keeping his restrictions/limitations/weaknesses in tact.
I mentioned this before but it is very hard to change the ground recovery on demon flip grab, if not impossible. The animation is hard coded into the landing. Most moves have two animations, one for the landing and one for the rest. DF Grab does not.If I change it looks super weird and Gouken lands well before the opponent does and goes invisible for a brief period. There is (as far as I know) NOTHING I can do about demon flip grab. I can make a note about it in the video but I can’t change it in my mod.
Capcom can probably change it but they likely have more sophisticated tools than I do.
Thanks @Risemix.
The balance update is going to be announced soon and should be out later this month.
When are you planning on completing the video?
Wish I could do more to help… I’m either going to buy another Mac or PC just so I can mod.
can you keep the opponent on the ground longer rather than getting gouken up sooner?
I know this comes in late, but in regards to the issue c.MK comboing from c.LP, wouldn’t it just be possible to remove the ability to special cancel c.MK? In that case you neither need to touch the damage or the start-up.
I concede that there might be uses of c.MK cancels that I haven’t even thought of though, because I never use the move for anything but anti-airing.
^ it still has use from canceling so no, the best option would be to nerf the damage.
Some people crouch tech with it, and go to lp palm or tatsu/tatsu fadc.
You can also cancel it to a dive kick after anti airing/reset and get some really good set ups/mix ups, but not many of us use it for that.
Nerfing the damage solves the issue, and since it’s not frequently used it shouldn’t matter much.
He shouldn’t lose the ability to cancel a normal bc he got a 2 frame link.
Now cl st lk… Useless AF.
I’m not in a rush to finish it before Capcom’s december balance patch because they have likely already finished making whatever changes they plan to make this time. I’m working on it, but it’s hard, I’m not an expert video editor and my computer is old and overheating a lot. 
But I’m wokring on it.