Mod Discussion: Gouken in 2015. Video released, check reddit link in top post

The activation range for all of gouken’s close normals in Ultra is actually 1.2. I changed c/fs.MK to 1.4.

Now that I think about it, even if you get 2 c.MP to c.HP x EX Tatsu, it does less damage and stun than if you had just gone into your normal EX Pain Train punish. I’m going to leave it at 1.2, but I’m still going to reduce the damage (and stun) slightly with respect to our friends with big hurtboxes.

EDIT: Yeah this works out well. If you get a deep jump-in, there are a few characters where you’ll get two s.MPs into c.HP. The damage is only a little higher than it used to be. If you can’t get the two s.MPs, then it’s a little lower. But the improved tools (and better normals) Gouken has easily balance this out. I reduced the damage on close MP from 70 to 60 too. That normal was never used in combos before and now it is, so the damage needs to reflect that IMO!

c.lp c.lp smk x heavy tatsu: 218 dmg
ex tatsu: 228 dmg

Sounds dope! good shit great work. IAM’s ass is remote viewing and rise is broadcasting live from the matrix lol!!

Sounds like fun working on it !

with cl mp tweaked a bit now dj.hp>cl.st.mp>cl.hk works on most of the cast now and I would imagine would be quite the sick jump in off 1 bar if you added in ex tatsu as a follow up to cl st hk.

Long post. Pretty much finished now.

Stuff I didn’t do:

• All light normals to +4. This increased the damage of Gouken’s light combos a lot more than I was comfortable with and also provided a hit-confirm from c.LK which I don’t think Gouken is “supposed” to have. ~250 damage meterless BnBs are a little too much for the big guy. Rufus has that but he also doesn’t get big punishes without Ultra.

• +6 frame advantage on far MP. Gave him c.HP from some characters, especially in the corner. Also felt a little inbalanced in footsies, unfortunately. Far MP is a pretty good button as it is right now and the blockstun and range meant you could just fish for far MP->Sweep at a certain range whenever you wanted. I tested these changes with a few people in online training on Steam and they complained about it endlessly, frankly I agreed with them. There’s not a lot most characters can do at that range with only a 5 frame gap.

• c.HP for stand; I found other ways to address the problems we were having with c.HP, so this is not needed.

• Reduced recovery on air parry: i finally tracked down the value needed to fix this one (I think) only to find that the recovery is already pretty low, it’s 8 frames. I messed around with it as is, and the new crouching jab and close MK (3 frame combo normals) make utilizing this a lot easier than it was before, so for now I’m going to leave it.

• Tatsu recovery, command grab recovery: I wanted to fix this but I couldn’t do it without breaking them with my current set of tools. The lower recovery on air tatsus allows you to use those safely now in the corner as a combo ender, though!

It seems like I ommitted a lot of stuff, but please try the mod if you can before you jump to conclusions. There are a ton of great improvements here, more than I wanted to put in to begin with (will be uploading a new version of it today, or tomorrow). I’m still taking feedback though.

Final? Detailed Change List:

• Close Standing Medium Kick:
o Now activates at a farther range (Close MK and Far MK Position Restriciton Distance from 1.2 to 1.4
o Damage reduced to 60 from 70
o Stun reduced to 90 from 100

CONTEXT: Allows Gouken to extend his light punch combos into this move so that he can have a plinkable BNB and gives him a few new (suboptimal) combos. If the opponent is standing, he can use Medium or Heavy Tatsu to end it; if they are crouching, he must end in Light or Medium Palm. This change is probably the only damage increase I gave him, but the reduced damage and stun keeps things within a reasonable range.

**• Crouching Light Punch: **
o Frame advantage on hit has been increased from +3 to +4

CONTEXT: Crouching Light Punch combos have been made 1 frame easier with this change. Currently, Gouken’s light punch link straddle an uncomfortable line between chaining them together and missing the link and flying up into the air on block; this is here to alleviate this problem somewhat.

• Crouching Medium Punch:
o Start-up increased to 6 frames from 5
o Recovery increased by 2 frames
o Frame advantage has been increased to +5 from +3
o Pushback has been reduced to .4 from .5
o Advantage on block is now 0 from -2

CONTEXT: Crouching MP combo repurposed for use as a poke. Cancels into fireball are still not a blockstring or even close to it, but opponents can no longer jump between the medium punch and Hadoken. Start-up and extra recovery balance its new purpose; it is easier to whiff punish and counter-hit.

• Crouching Heavy Punch:
o Pushback reduced to 0.6 from 0.7 on hit and on block

CONTEXT: Pushback has been reduced a little bit to assist Gouken’s specials in connecting when cancelled from this attack.

• Crouching Medium Kick:
o Start-up increased to 5 frames from 4

CONTEXT: The new crouching light punch links into this attack at 4 frames. This attack’s primary use is as an anti-air, so given the choice between reducing its damage and increasing its start-up by 1 frame, the choice seemed pretty clear. Simply put, crouching medium kick’s animation looks very strange when used mid-combo and increasing its start-up by 1 won’t make it less desirable on the rare occasion when it is preferred over another option. At 4 frames it is a damage increase from jab that is likely a little too strong.

**
• Close Standing Medium Punch:
**o Hitbox width increased from .35 to 1 so that it will no longer whiff vs. reeling hitboxes
o Pushback on-hit reduced to 0.5 from 0.6. Pushback on block remains 0.6
o Damage reduced to 55 from 65
o Stun reduced to 90 from 100

CONTEXT: Pushback has been reduced a little bit in order to make Gouken’s normals connect better afterwards. Because Gouken has a lot of advantage on block after this normal, the pushback reduction was not extended to blocking opponents. Its hitbox was expanded by a healthy amount to ensure it doesn’t whiff against Balrog and friends. It is worth noting that the size of the hitbox doesn’t really matter as once Gouken is far enough away (Position Restriction Distance is 1.2), he can’t use it anymore anyway. Because of the reduction in pushback, Gouken can now sometimes get two close medium punches, especially after jump-ins, so I’ve reduced its damage and stun as well. If you get two MPs, the damage on most combos will be only a little higher than it is now. If you can only get one, it will be only a little lower.

• Tatsumaki Gorasen:
o Pushback on first hit of all Tatsus on air opponents reduced to 0 from 0.8.
o Hitbox height of all hits after the first set to 0.4 (mostly from 0 or 0.2). The final hit of Heavy Tatsu has been increased to 0.6 from 0.2.

CONTEXT: The Light, Medium, and Heavy versions of this move will no longer drop smaller characters after EX Senkugoshoha, except Adon (this drop is a problem with Adon, not Gouken). In addition, The Light, Medium, and Heavy versions of this move should link more reliably after back throw. There are a few cases where you still lose hit, but in all cases, the final attack should connect.

• Air Tatsumaki Gorasen:
o Light, Medium, and Heavy Kick Air Tatsu now recover in 10 frames, down from 19.
o Light, Medium, and Heavy Kick Air Tatsus’ height restrictions have been reduced to 0.3, from 0.5.
o - Light, Medium, and Heavy Kick Air Tatsu now inflict less blockstun. It’s still a blockstring while the attack is active, but will remain punishable at the end. This change was made to ensure that the lower recovery time didn’t make Instant Air Tatsus safe on block. Because EX Air Tatsu is mostly unchanged, this change was not applied to it.
o All Air Tatsus’ chip damage has been lowered to 10 per hit for Light, Medium, and Heavy, and 15 per hit for EX.
o Light Air Tatsu’s float raised vs air opponents only: pushback distance has been lowered from 0.8 to 0.6, Y Velocity raised from 0.05 to 0.09, X Velocity lowered to 0.6 from 1.

CONTEXT: These changes are designed to bring usability to Gouken’s normal air tatsus. The only change to EX is a heavy reduction in chip across the board, which affected the normal versions as well. All normal air tatsus will lag less, incur less blockstun (to ensure they are still punishable), and are easier to perfom with a tiger knee motion. Light Version’s float state has been made usable, too; you can now juggle into Super or Ultra 2 with Light Air Tatsu. This is primarily a flash maneuver, though, as it rarely offers higher damage or meter efficiency compared to other options…. it’s just really cool.

• Senkugoshoha:
o Forward velocity on EX Senkugoshoha increased to 0.13 from 0.12.

CONTEXT: EX Senkugoshoha should connect better after a crouching heavy punch now, and will move slightly faster across the stage.

cool

@‌risemix

Did increasing the forward movement of lp palm have any affect?

Capcom buffed it on the last update, but I don’t think they gave it enough movement. I look at the hit box on lp palm and then look at the hit box on Yun/Yangs palm and just smh.

I don’t think the hit box should be tinkered with, just the forward movement.

It has a 9 frame start up and 0 invincibility to strikes or throws and does only 90 damage.

I think it should almost always connect after lp. Having it connect from max cr lk/cr mp would be too good. But the extra range would still make those versions better as well, and would help it combo better.

I think the other adjustments I made stop it from needing the extra inch… for example, the combos you gave me all work now on Ryu. Also keep in mind that if it still whiffs, you can nearly always replace the c.LP with cs.MP, which pushes you forward.

However, if you still think it does, I don’t see how it could hurt necessarily. If they made only that change in a vacuum it would be really helpful.

Thanks.

When you do the vid are you going to do a before/after comparison? Side by side or something, to show the differences / why the change was/is needed?

@iamthatiam‌

Probably going to talk using my microphone. I hate my voice, but I think it’s necessary here.

So:

  1. Briefly talk about gouken’s strengths and weaknesses, why I think he needs changes. Strengths: punish damage, good air control, good mobility, decent zoning (and I’ll explain the problems there), good far-range buttons and AAs. Weaknesses: weakness to focus, poor defense to close-range pressure, difficulty opening up crouching opponents, fireball game being more susceptible to horizontal approach tools.
  2. Talk a little bit about the goals of the project
  3. Talk about specific changes, first going over buffs, then bug fixes. Show what it looks like in Ultra/AE, then show what it looks like in my mod.
  4. Talk about the overall consequences of each change in detail. Document any new combos and potential for abuse. I think I did a pretty good job at ensuring there won’t be any silliness, but I will still show off anything new. For example, cLP->s.HK x RFC is new, and it sucks, but I’ll still mention it. Back throw->jMP x Light Tatsu->Ultra 2 adds 20 damage and around 50 stun to an existing combo, so I will need to mention that. Etc.
  5. Talk about how to install the mod
  6. Thank people who helped, including the posters here on these boards and the SF4 Remix team for their launcher.

I expect the whole video to be around 5 minutes. It might end up longer, but I hope to keep it short and informative.

@iamthatiam‌

If you had to summarize Gouken’s strengths and weaknesses overall, what would you say about him?

The list I’m going with is here, if you have one or two things to add or if there’s anything you don’t agree with, lemme know. That goes for anyone.

STR: High and meter efficient punish damage+stun; good air control and air-to-air; good mobility; strong if not somewhat flawed zoning; good far buttons (MK, c.HK, s.HP); great AAs; solid and balanced wake-up; fast dash forward and good FADC pressure; high potential for come-backs;

WKN: No instant 2-hit fireball, terrible backdash and backwards walk speed, difficulty opening up crouch blockers, large frame especially when crouching, parries are broken by armor breaking attacks, defense and offense both pretty meter reliant, focus attacks can shut Gouken down, poor close-range pressure defense,

@risemix‌

I pretty much agree with all of the strengths that you listed I will try to list some things that I didn’t see.

Strengths

  • Many unpunishable normals
  • Backthrow
  • tricky wake up options (needs EX for all purpose reversal that is -102 on block lol)
  • Good knock down game if he can keep it going and but it slows down after landing GF Grab since the recovery limits follow up options

Weaknesses
-Suspect to grabs “only one move EX Tatsu is safe from grabs” EX Flip avoids grabs but dive kick can’t be cancelled early enough to punish and opponent recovers. Max punish specials on block that can also be grabbed. All other specials can be grabbed no matter how un-safe they are.
-Lacks reliable hit confirms from light attacks
-Lacks 2 hit normal
-Lacks all purpose reversal
-Tatsu misses many crouching opponents
-Loses momentum in matches due to recovery time after landing certain attacks (GF Grab)
-Can’t reaction and go through fireballs with EX Palm b/c attack has limited fireball invincibility.
-Opponents can focus through any of his non charged fireballs
-Unable to link light attacks to medium or hard attacks at ANY range.
-Poor up-close defense

Hopefully they get it right.

If not, there’s always hoping to he’ll be broken in Omega Mode for justice.

Hey man, you can burn the cr. LP’s +4 frame advantage on a cross if the price is to sacrifice the speed of cr. MK.

My take would be this:

  1. Back-throw start-up to 3 frames
  2. All Tatsumakis hit low
  3. All hits of all Tatsumakis prohibit quick-rise
  4. Ultra 2 speed boost to require fewer and easier inputs

one of his weaknesses can indeed be Focus Attacks, however
this is assuming you also respond with FA. If you respond with EX Tatsu
then you’re golden. The only problem could be that they dash away and
leave ya hanging, but if you just wait till the last moment that won’t be a
concern as the input for EX Tatsu is easy enough to allow that.

Focus attack I’ll deal with ultra 2 and follow up and palm, or something into lp palm. Just back dash

U2 speed should be a matter of hold forward for fast, neutral for mid, and back for slow.

How many speeds does u 2 have exactly?

I’m still working on the video. c.LP could stay +3 frames if you guys wanted it to, since the new fs.MK would be plinkable… or I can decrease the damage on c.MK. It’s currently 70.

Damage has to be carefully managed. c.LP c.LP c.MK is a lot of damage and frankly looks weird (c.MK was never intended to be a combo move). If you guys can think of another way to change this one then let me know.

I am aware that changing c.MK to 5 frames removes Gouken’s ability to crouch tech with c.MK and get a 4 frame tech, and even though it’s unsafe, it might be occasionally desirable. That’s part of the reason the mod release has been delayed a little bit, I’m trying to work out some kinks.

I can reduce the damage to 60, which is the same as the damage on cs.MK.

The annoying thing about c.MK is just how redundant it tends to be. It’s useful in a few match-ups (I like it vs. Deejay) but most of the time it’s just inferior to Gouken’s other AA choices and there’s not really a reason to use it. 70 damage is already pretty low for an AA normal and then on top of that Gouken’s others already do a lot. All this means that any nerf to c.MK feels kind of unfair.

I’m open to ideas.

Gouken 4 frame cr Mk have its purposes and uses other then crouch tech. It was an amazing hit box not just against dive kick character, but for people who try to cross you up, and it works as AA when the cr HP is somewhat slow. And of top of that it’s -5 on block. So please explain me what are you trying to do, what’s the light at the end of the tunnel!!!

@risemix is it possible to leave the light attacks at the current frame advantage but allow the chain to be cancelled instead?

Just a thought.

It can be done, but it breaks one of the primary Street Fighter 4 rules (as I’m sure you’re aware!), which is that chains can’t be cancelled.

Exceptions to the rule already exist in-game but they are very limited in scope. For example, Evil Ryu’s close light kick can be cancelled after chaining it, but you can only chain one attack into it before cancelling it so it’s hard to hit-confirm and he has better options anyway.

This might be a good solution but it’s a tough sell because it’s just one of the core limitations of the game we’re talking about.

The goal is to give Gouken combos from his c.LP that aren’t either a chain or a 1 framer that can’t be plinked. The obvious solution is to increase c.LP to +4, but it gives Gouken a combo to c.MK. If you cancel it does like 230 damage for 0 meter, this is a massive buff. The current combo I added (c.LP c.LP cs.MK x special) is like 215 damage and it might still be too much. I’m trying to get Gouken to combo from c.LP into either c.LP or cs.MK.

I had a talk with some other players, some who play Gouken and some who don’t, and most of them seem to think that the cs.MK buff makes c.LP at +4 frames somewhat redundant anyway. Even at +3 it’s very easy to plink it. If you can do c.LP c.LP cs.MK there isn’t much of a reason to do anything else, it’s not like either is a blockstring. “Why do you need c.LP to be +4 if it’s causing problems and cs.MK is plinkable?” It’s a good question.

I think changing c.LP back to +3 is a nice compromise and gives exactly what we want for very little cost. There is also the chain cancel change, but I’d prefer to not break any universal rules. Thoughts?

Ohhh i see, but that’s gonna be another problem, because after two cr lp close Mk won’t come out on mostly characters (far Mk will instead) and cr Mk doesn’t have any reach. So to me that buff is pointless. But that’s just me