to be clear my post wasn’t about keranata (as I’ve never seen him play) but just about the game in general.
DR Ray exploding himself against Mike Ross was great.
Kindevu cookie monster was great.
Poongko not giving a fuck was great.
Viscant made me root for Phoenix. Also wave dash Pile Driver was sick.
Hahaha, “BOOOOOOOO”.
of course, like everyone else, i’m just giving alex shit. i’m sure he did fine and had fun
50 ppl for an unreleased kof game at evo isn’t half bad 
still haven’t seen the ah3 top 3 but we already know who is number one in that game so it doesn’t matter too much
ah3:
frieda
kusanagi
heartnana
heartnana very likely the better petra…but petra mirror matches can be silly (I heard it was a lot of derp dodging lol). kusanagi still very good though. and frieda rizzaped (after a bit of time before downloading). though I and a few others from across the country couldn’t make it, it sounded like a great tourney with a good top 8. can’t wait to see this halo lizzzz. and the petra mirror derp-fest
We should play games on supercade sometime, and LB2 has so much potential- hella deep, interesting characters and combos, parry button with hitstun/guard crush like properties.
I can’t comment on Tekken/Mahvel/SSF4 because I didn’t watch them, but I can comment on the “3s Grandmaster Exhibition” in OE which was a total joke to anyone who still takes the game seriously. Mike Z using Tanden Renki, doing neutral jump hk, c.lp, dash in NORMAL THROW and landing it all the time and not going for the command grab? Using Tanden (YOU CANT BLOCK) and dying because of it? Hsien Chang missing DP x2 in the corner, missing techs, almost 0 use of mp, hp, fireball xx super (not even really using Ken’s s.mp), and overall playing bad Ken… Not a single Yun or Urien player, people using Remy in Remy mirrors and having no idea how to play him? The only two that deserved to be there/put on a good show were Fubarduck’s Dudley and Amir’s Chun (although he’s rusty)…
Where were Sextaro, Emphy, 5Star, hell even Gootecks’ Urien? All the FFA ranbat players were/are way better than what was displayed there. I can only imagine what Tokido and Daigo were thinking seeing the level of 3s play
I regularly fight 3s players on supercade that play better than these guys (and yes I get destroyed)… sharks with lasers and shinshay. I regularly see valueblock/TheShend japanese 3s replays on youtube from Gamer’s Vision 2005 with a level of 3s play miles above this… and any 2009+ jap matches arent even the same game
Sadly the crowd seemed to not be able to tell, and the stream twitter feed had a bunch of “fuck this boring game, I wanna see mvc3” comments. =/
edit: jap level play from 2007 for comparison
[media=youtube]fm1vDFIQNnM[/media]
what do you guys think about that old viscant arguement that parrying in 3S removes a lot of the spacing/metagame elements that make 2D fighters great?
I think he’s onto something but is fundamentally wrong in thinking that parrying has no downsides - you’re exposing yourself to attack by tapping forward. I don’t know enough about 3S to really comment, though. I just know there are a lot of 3S fans in this thread so i wondered what you guys thought.
3S does seem to be short on zoning/defensive characters though. Everybody wants to get in your face in that game, which makes an interesting game too though. I could see why people who liked playing honda or sagat or dhalsim in ST would find themselves lost in 3S. There’s really no advantage to being long range vs anyone in 3S cause it’s just free meter build and any longer strikes or projectiles are really very easy to parry, and anti-airs can be parried as well.
I agree with you Chun. Shoto fireball’s don’t seem to do anything in 3rd Strike except allow your opponent to build meter. It’s really different from 2 or Alpha. Some people like it, some people don’t. My main problem with 3s is that you can build meter with whiffs. It really annoys me, as expending energy is not something you want to do in a real fight. It is a beautiful game though, perhaps the best animation of all time. Tekken is pretty good, except for juggle animations, which make me puke. SoulCalibur for Dreamcast is also beautiful, but juggles look crappy. Virtua Fighter is . . . OK. DOA boob physics were rediculous in the first one, but I loved the one button parries. Never played another.
SNK games still look like low grade street fighter clones. Garou seemed alright the one time I played it. Probably my favorite of the SNKs . . . not that I’ve played any for more than a week. Shodown came the closest.
I like the MK full screen fireball game. You can duck fireballs, and they pass through each other and move quick.
I only play popular games.
Your welcome for something to read at work;|
I love 3S, but yeah there’s no actual projectile game aside from three:
- Oro. EX Orbs are good because they’re slow as hell and track. Difficult to parry and can force bad positioning and/or mixups. Downside: they cost meter, and he loses to Chun 8-2. Guess how much you’ll see him.
- Urien. Projectiles lead to damage, positioning, and possibly an unblockable if they anti-air. Oh yeah, and they can be aimed upward. Nightmare for Twelve, as eating one in the air usually means I lose that round.
- Remy. Charge-partitioning his sonic booms gives him some good screen coverage and corner pressure. Too bad he’s a shitty character otherwise. Guile doesn’t work well in a game where you can parry flash kicks, sir.
Wish there was more of one, but on the plus side it makes for more up-close matches.
Parrying is a metagame, and there is a ton of spacing in 3s. It isn’t entirely about controlling space vertically and horizontally from a distance, or trying to push someone into the corner as much as ST or Alpha, with footsies having somewhat reduced value. It isn’t a weird hybrid of that zoning + footsies and mixup and trying to combo an Ultra like 4.
Spacing is extremely technical and essential in good 3s play, especially with the parry engine, and the extremely high complement of moves most characters have. Makoto has a command normal that is f+ any strength attack on EVERY button, a lot of other chars do too, all with very unique properties. A lot of combos in 3s can ONLY be done at an EXACT distance and will fail/ not link at any other range. For example, Ken and Chun’s Universal Overhead -> super link can only be done at a very exact distance (specifically, after a blocked c.lk, c.mp string with Ken). Makoto’s stun combo with SAII (s. hp xx SAII) can only be done with Makoto and the opponent both on one side of the timer (if they’re on the other side and you s.hp -> super with HK it wont link). There are very very many spacing specific/counter hit specific combos for every character in every matchup they have.
Because of parries, spacing is not about zoning with fireballs, but knowing which move is appropriate for which situation/footsies. Parrying adds a guessing metagame because of mids (moves that can be parried high OR low, a shoto’s c.mp being the best example, it hits low but can be parried by pressing F): a good example is in Ken vs Ken mirrors, if someone is waking up after I knock them down, and I time a meaty attack on them as they get up, I can go for a c.mp super or a c.mk super: the c.mp can be parried high or low, the c.mk can only be parried low, and if I vary this on knockdowns (as well as throw out other moves) the mixup becomes pretty deep
Parrying adds a different dimension of depth, as opposed to just a rock paper scissors game of what move beats what other move… It actually adds a metagame of baiting parries. If I constantly dash up on wakeup and go for a move into combo, and the opponent catches on and starts reading well and parrying on his wakeup I can expect he may try and parry and instead dash in and command grab which will beat a parry and likely beat any reversal attempt unless it’s timed perfectly (works great with Ibuki)…
Fireballs are garbage full screen, yes, EX fireballs or Akuma’s red fireball are good to a degree. Good players will parry them if they see them coming, but if they commit to a move from just outside sweep range and an EX fireball is well timed it can win and will give you a knockdown, this happened a few times yesterday with Hsien Chang fighting Amir.
Sorry that was long, but hopefully it explains things to a degree
Double post, sorry
Hogosha is right, Oro’s EX orb is good… Urien’s upward fireballs are great antiair and set up tackle combos, Remy can zone with high/low rings and EX rings but sucks anyway… why no mention of Akuma I don’t know (his air and red fireballs allow him to zone well, and considering an air tatsu can be used instead of an air fireball if they try to meet you in the air and will set up a shoryu afterward…)
Updated the OP with Jerry’s new addy. If anyone new is reading the thread see the first post for when and where we meet.
Seems like we are going to have a great tournament this weekend. There are even some players we haven’t met yet coming out from Green Bay to support. I hope with all the talk of 3S that we get a decent amount of people to enter.
i read through all of viscant’s argument years ago. now i’m some nobody and hes a top player, so my opinion is garbage, but i will say i disagree with what he has to say. he claims that set ups in sf2 involving the stage and positioning and what have you are a full screen mindgame. i honestly don’t see how something can be a mindgame if you have only one option out of something, if that. he claims the theory that a mindgame is “you thought i would do this, but i did this instead” is not the true definition of a mindgame, which i don’t fully understand. the consensus with most players, as proven in the shift from down-back sf4 to rushdown AE, is that people really seem to want faultless offense. people want their meaties to beat wakeup options. people want the game to be over if they knock their opponents down. people want overheads that lead to massive combos. i get the need for offensive footholds to actually mean something, but fighting games to me should not be about losing because you got in an unwinnable situation. i understand the metagame there too- just don’t get put in that situation. sure. but mistakes happen, and unless this is hyper fighting where you can only really make a mistake in your fundamentals, i don’t think you should lose a match for sticking out a poke and eating an ultra. getting owned by an unwinnable scenario ultimately doesn’t make you a worse player than the other guy-anyone can do that to any player. if you outthink your opponent, you deserve that victory. that is why i back the parry. i’m sorry your foolproof fireball trap doesn;t work anymore, but what is the mindgame in that? everyone knows you can’t jump so you instead try to outpoke, or if youre a grappler, eat tons of chip damage to get in. this is not a mindgame. it is an exact science, but with parries you completely change that mechanic. now you can parry the anti-air, so either the opponent knows that and you land on his low forward to super, or he gets to parry your aerial move if you see that option coming. that is a mindgame.
it’s not for everybody, and i can see why old school players would hate to have their seasoned mechanics altered. i understand why if you put up a wall of offense that is seemingly inpenetrable, it would suck to still get beaten by a defensive maneuver, even if it has a massive risk attached to it (which few understand). but if that’s how you feel, play any other street fighter.
I didn’t mention him or Ibuki because I’m used to kunai/air hadou being used for pressure and mix-ups rather than to spam and zone. Exceptions being against, say, one of the fatties like Hugo/Alex or the randomest bitch ever Makoto, but Akuma and Ibuki have such crappy life that one wrong guess on using an air projectile will probably equal 50%+ and the opponent being in to ruin your day. Still, however, it’s an option, and since I spent a long time maining Akuma/Elena and Keela mains Ibuki/Makoto we both know the merits of throwing things to say get the fuck out…but I think we both spend a lot more time with spacing and building meter via normals.
Also, I’m nothing special, nor is my opinion definitive, so I could just be completely off my rocker.
This especially but everything else you said is why I like 3s over 4
Kunai and air hadou being used for pressure/in block strings is essentially what I meant, it can’t really be used to zone in very high level play but it can be used to try and mix people up. Air fireball more than Kunai, I used to be an Ibuki main (Makoto now) but I got sick of losing to good Uriens because she takes so damn much damage. Also, jump in parrying his AA fireball online with lag is more difficult. Normal kunai is worthless EXCEPT maybe for LP kunai in a neutral jump as part of a blockstring in place of a throw after a normal canceled command dash, and the kunai can be super canceled to SA1 (example: f+mk overhead, s.mk, qcf+lk, throw OR neutral jump lp kunai/super with meter). Almost all normals and a lot of specials just knock the kunai away. More realistically her EX kunai is a great crossup tool since unlike her watered down gimped SSF4 version she keeps traveling on the same arc after throwing it and can get another standing combo. Akuma’s air fireball is really good, especially neutral jump air fireball close, I see people use it to bait a parry on wakeup and then try to hit a c.mk -> fireball super or c.mk -> lk tatsu if the person doesn’t block low fast enough after parrying. Dash in, neutral jump air fireball also will beat a tech attempt if they think you’re gonna dash in throw, and of course can be super cancelled into SA1 Akuma’s pressure game with red fireballs, air fireballs, demon flip and low poke -> lk tatsu, not to mention his kara throw, is why he is high mid tier.
I’m nothing special either and my opinion isn’t definitive but for the last 3 years since 4 came out I’ve still played 3s more than anything else with jswey. What you said both times makes really good sense and is solid knowledge
Day 1 of P90X absolutely kicked my ass. Holy fucking shit.
if you show up to the tracks saturday… i’ll enter 3S
I’ve been enjoying all this 3S chatter and waiting for you to drop some science and you post this, lmao. MIND GAMES
yeah i’m glad people are getting some good discussion going especially with 3S OE coming soon. Helps me understand the game a little more.