Make sure u AA any jump ins Focus on keeping him at bay… When he is rushing you on wake up ex demon flip is the best option bc the 360 grab and the dragon punch will whiff and combing after ex df dive kick can quickly equalize the match…
ok guys thank you for that, but i tried some tactics and here is the situation… 360 command grab dash and HK dive kick and the only stuff i could do was lk hurricane and sometimes it whiffed him, the EX tatsu moves too much so it whiffed him, dashes didn’t try and couldn’t poke anything, neither hk or cr.hp
**Also use hk GF to get out of the corner.
Seth probably has the best mix up on the game, Fuck Seth.
dash SPD is really good and there is nothing you can really do about this other than make a wall of normals and/or keep out of range.
seth’s dive kick hit box is pretty poor. any normal will stuff it as long as you time it properly (this takes practice.) cr.hp and cr.mk should do the trick.
anyway, don’t guess ex tatsu or ex demon flip. this shit only works on online. offline you will get punished hard for guessing wrong on ex tatsu and lose meter, and ex demon flip = walk back slightly and cr.hp into free combo. if you want to guess, you’re better off not burning meter and guess jumping for potentially 50%+ or trying to parry for a mindfuck + damage.
keeping seth out is ideal, but feel free to demon flip in if he starts trying to lame it out in return when you aren’t in the lead. one good reaction to a bad boom puts him in a bad situation.
i forgot the new frame data but im pretty sure any obvious safe jump set ups get taken out of the picture once gouken has super stocked now too.
Not sure if this is legit, I managed to bait Seth doing U1 with HK DF > (Slide or Parry when it starts).
Meh, this depends on where you are. If you drop into the range and Seth waits for it, you are going to get hit with the ultra. If you are over him when he activates it, then you are safe.
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Could someone break down exactly why Infiltration beasts on this Seth? Given that he doesn’t seem to know the matchup and doesn’t block or shoryuken the unsafe jump ins.
My observations:
Infiltration does a lot of dash in, C. MP > LP Fireball and also stuffs every Seth jump in with jumping HP. Are these legit strategies?
Also at 1:04, Infiltration does a Forward throw > Dash > HK Demon Flip Dive Kick Cross up. I’m pretty sure this isn’t safe…but does any one know if this works on Seth/ other tall characters?
Not to be a real ass, but it’s exatly because this Seth player really sucks. At least in this match.
As Seth, other than putting the pressure on the opponent you also have to block nicely as you have the worst vitality in the game. If you watch the second round of this match, the Seth player cannot even block flips. He first dashes forward to the landing Gouken and waits for getting grabbed and after that he doesn’t block two of them demon flips in a row, both of which are followed up with damaging combos.
Forward throw > dash > slight movement forward (pixel walk…not even half a step) > hk flip kick is mostly safe and messes with auto correct…will stuff some srks and make others whiff. I’m pretty sure the opponent has to block cross up.
Studying the ART I see. That is the Oni Special.
At the beginning of a match watch out for low arms against a fireball. Try to get full screen and play a fireball game but don’t just throw them blindly. Wait a tick or two, throw a fake, see what they do.
If they throw one and teleport close, this is punishable by sweep, counter or throw. I usually throw or counter based on when they teleport. Throw is great because it sets up the GF mixup and it makes you invulnerable to the fireball. Watch for walk up arms. Also if they wall jump, wait as long as possible, brush up on your reactions, and either crouch fierce or ex tatsu based on whether you have/want to save meter. I usually save at least one bar per round, but more on why below. If you can react, you can always beat a wall dive jump in with crouch fierce or ex tatsu. The need for reactions are to see a Seth stop wall dive jump ins half way with a dive kick. If you ex tatsu without reactions to it, you’ll eat a full punish. Also, I think a whiffed crouch fierce on a wall-dive stopping dive kick from Seth nets him his version of Ex Tatsu (multi-hit machine gun kicks or whatever it’s called).
A blocked Seth Vortex (I mean the suck-in special) always nets a throw or sweep if you’re at mid-range or closer (I believe, test to be sure but I know throw is guaranteed).
Bait Ultra 1 if they use it.
Finally the reason for saving meter; EX Demon Flip. If Seth doesn’t use Ultra 2, EX GF beats EVERY option he has on your or his wake up that is offensive in nature. SPD nets a full Gouken punish. Properly timed late, dive kick nets a full punish on SRKs (normal DPs definitely). They all whiff, including ex SRK, which I believe nets damage as an air to air most of the time. But they can’t FADC because of the GF invincibility.
Note these things, play solid, and press buttons. There’s nothing worse than, with Gouken’s specials and normals, plus high damage/stun output (against the character with almost the least amount of health/stun) losing to Seth because you did nothing during a 50/50 when you could have. I’m not saying press buttons on EVERY wake up, obviously, but let him feel the burn for doing so and make him remember that Gouken hurts.
The tools Gouken has couple with solid reactions, in my opinion, makes this match 5/5. At the worst (Poongko/OnlineTony level skill vs a Gouken) it’s possibly 5.25/4.75.
The only thing that stops GF cold, even ex, is Ultra 2. Sucks, but on wake up, Seth would have to block first and not push buttons anyways. Which is a good thing. 
Feel free to critique/discuss.
You can never sweep Tanden Engine on block, it’s -4 at best. The spacing at which it’s -4 is extremely specific and very distant from Seth, far enough that I doubt you can actually throw him.
Up close (IE in blockstrings, etcetera), Tanden engine is plus double digits. You can’t do shit besides blocking, everything else gets you hit by cr.lk.
You can try to bait it but a good Seth is hard to bait just by throwing out normals. And they can stop playing your game and start throwing fireballs, then see if you throw a second one after you nullify it.
Have you actually tried this, say against Seth’s lp SRK? Also, Seth can cl.hp Gouken flip if you’re above him and your only option there is to guess and parry.
If I’m doing my standard left/right divekick/j.hk crossup mixups, I should be able to punish EX Demon flip on reaction if you do it as a reversal with cl.hp, lp srk, or j.mp (which is two hits).
Like I said before, j.mp on reaction to demon flip should be basically free.
What you said about AA’ing Seth is good, but EX Legs with Seth is very slow and probably wouldn’t even punish whiffed cr.hp. In that situation, his best punish depending on spacing would be either raw lk/mk legs or cr.mk xx mk legs.
I’ve been in situations where I’ve gotten sweep clean. Maybe the Seth player wasn’t blocking, or maybe it being -4 in the situation you’re describing allows for a follow up sweep to be meaty and they’re just not SRK’ing, but I’m speaking from experience in this situation, not from training mode so maybe I should take this into the lab more. I know that you can at least catch a 3x Jab, 2x short combo from it. I’ve throw-punished this a bunch of times blocking at certain ranges.
For me this goes without saying though. You ahve to be aware of your own patterns as well as pick up some quick habits of your opponent. Also, I don’t bait fireballs just by throwing out a randon kick or punch with a hope. I QCF + K, or I QCF, wait a tick, and then I’ll far st.mp, because far st.mp looks almost identical to lp.Hadou, minus the existence of plasma. Baits should be calculated. I’ve played some pretty good higher level Seth players and making a bait look legitimate by knowing your own patterns and catching some habits of the players you’re playing, you’d be surprised as to who you can bait. I’ll never assume that just because a player is or seems VERY good, that I won’t automatically catch them on a good bait, fake, or good footsies.
I had Ryan Hart in my hotel room at EVO this year and I didn’t do horrible against him at all. He won the best of three, but I took a match down and played solid mostly throughout the game. He said one thing to me: “Play your game. Don’t assume that just because someone is amazing that they know all the answers to your gameplay.” I totally agree. If you play your game and win, you win. If you play your game and lose, it’s okay to understand that minor details need to be adjusted, but that doesn’t mean you deviate from your game plan entirely.
True, timing is the key here though, and reactions work well with those outs. When you say it’s the only option, I believe you might mean that it’s the safest option, and minimizes the most risk while in the air. Not all players are going to minimize their risk everytime they play. It’s just not that realistic of an assumption. You can also stuff the startup of that with demon flip throw if they do it late. Also, if Seth does lp.SRK on your wakeup and it’s not punishable, he’s still forced to block the dive kick anyways. To stay safe you can cl.st.mp xx lp.palm.
I forget what Seth’s cl.st.hp looks like, but again you have a lot of time to either parry, throw, or divekick. He’d have to wait until the last second to react appropriately AND properly. And you’re right about dj.mp. It works very similarly to Gouken’s. Again though he’d have to be looking for it. And if he does it too late, you’ll only get hit by one hit. Play around with your GF. Try things early, try them late, try different options and keep the guessing game open. The mixup game on GF isn’t limited only to the buttons you press on certain characters, it’s also the timing.
The wall jump can be cancelled, I believe at anytime up until the top of the arc. Depending on Gouken’s spacing, a late whiffed cr.hp can definitely be punished and I’ve been punished out of downback cr.hp whiffing because a Seth divekicked out of wall jump.
Play around with some options though. And I mean this in the kindest fashion: While the forums here are definitely good for discussin theory fighter, and a lot of the times Seth has options for a lot of things, you can’t expect every player playing the character to select the best/correct option each and every time if you have good, solid mixup.
As Gouken in this match, you’re looking to keep Seth out with solid pokes, fireballs and footsies for as long as possible, until it’s time to make an educated guess on his game and if you’re rewarded for a punish it’s drastic. If a Seth player doesn’t want to acknowledge that, then I’m more than happy to give him as much damage as he’s willing to receive. If he does acknowledge it, then I know for sure that I’m playing this match with an understanding that the player is going to show my character a little bit of respect and change up accordingly.
Thanks a bunch for your feedback. I do indeed need to go into the lab and make sure I’m not getting lucky on some things to be sure that I’m tight with my gameplay.
THIS!!! And Gouken has shit up close for Seth.
This entire match up is about who guesses right, and sadly Seth has way more options than we do.
Just a little thing I realised. I was getting chipped out a lot by a Seth player recently with his U2.
If you have U1 and Seth activates U2 to attempt to chip you to death on wake up, or basically if he’s close enough to you and you’re not pressing buttons you can react with the Shinsho. I don’t know why I didn’t think about that sooner.
Can this be explored further?
Is it double digits if I “blocked” TE? If this is true, how does any Seth lose any match…ever? TE > SPD > rinse n repeat > broken robot asshole wins again!
P.S. For any Seth players…I’m not calling you an asshole but you have to admit that if Seth were real and walking around in the mall and you bumped into him, at some point you would be thinking to yourself, “What a fucking asshole!”
My observations:
Raw TE pulls in from too far away. 2 floor blocks (training room) or more? And it’s completely SAFE? Ridiculous! I get it that Seth has low health, but seriously? Seth is like the polar opposite of Dan…a joke character but for a completely different reason.
If it hits me ( Ex: I wasn’t holding back or down back or hitting Seth), it is a guaranteed combo for Seth from up to 1 block away, maybe more.
It starts up fast enough to be too hard to react to with a jump in and probably recovers fast enough to allow for Seth to teleport or srk. I’m not 100% sure since if I’m playing a good Seth who uses this move effectively, I was KO’d before I turned on my Playstation and just started her up to watch me get my ass kicked.
This move makes staying on the ground near Seth very dangerous…so you scrub Seth players that grab your microphone, after I Gouken flipped you to death 6 fights in a row, and complain about spamming and how I don’t know how to play properly (what, should I sit there and let you practice combos?) don’t understand Gouken but even worse is you don’t understand your own character.
This move should be blockable…seriously. If it is going to be safe for Seth if I block it, at least grant me that I don’t get sucked in so much.
You can’t throw people during blockstun. You can jump out of Tanden. You can always hit him out of tanden in blockstrings, you can even mash on sweep to punish it. Any time he tries to SPD you, you can always jump or backdash.
The frame advantage is spacing specific, hp tanden has really big range but unless it’s meaty it will never be plus at that range. Max lp tanden range is around even-ish. He almost always can get a combo from lp tanden, and basically never from mp tanden range.
It is completely possible to jump tanden on reaction. He can only SRK if you jump if it’s a meaty setup, otherwise it’s a free CH jump-in combo. And Seth usually dies if Gouken gets a simple combo into EX Palm.
Tanden has 21 startup frames. It can be jumped, even as a meaty. It does no chip. You can just walk up and sweep him, and if he does it he’ll get hit out of startup usually.
Your salt is delicious.
In AE, U2 had 88 invincibility frames.
Seth can use the frame advantage from a close tanden to blockstring to U2, and you can’t reversal.
LOL… I need that.
I know you can’t throw people in blockstun. You also can’t try to backdash or jump away from Seth every time he gets you with TE because of SRK or even his legs.
Your post contradicts itself unless I’m reading it wrong. I can jump if it’s a meaty TE, but I can’t because he can SRK if TE is meaty?
Mashing sweep or any other buttons during Seth’s blockstrings hoping he tries to use tanden is also suicide. Most of his strings push Gouken out too far to counter TE with anything BUT sweep. Why would anyone ever do that?
As far as reacting with a jump in, you are acting like 21 frames is so slow and easily reacted to…we are talking about 3/10ths of a second here to recognize the move and react. It’s possible, but pretty damned hard as I said (I didn’t say impossible) and all Seth really needs to do is stand to look like he might be going for TE, and he baits me into jumping.
My salt is pretty damned warranted. I know Seth is a complex character and is difficult to use properly so I give you Seth players respect for being able to do the things you do with him, but that doesn’t make his BS okay with me.
You can’t jump at him if it’s a meaty. You can do a reversal or jump away to negate his oki entirely if he does a meaty tanden. My point was that non-EX tanden can’t catch you for jumping, and if you see him do it in a blockstring you can even land a jump-in combo.
EX Tanden can catch you jumping, but it costs Seth 2 bars on a guess that still loses to pokes, on-reaction reversals.
If gouken predicts an SPD setup and lands nj.hp -> cl.hp xx EX palm dash hk tatsu, that’s over half life with Seth.
Yeah, you know about all those massive counter-hit combos Seth can do to you at mid-range? Oh wait, there’s almost nothing like that. The best he has is CH cr.mp -> cr.mk xx mk legs, and nobody does that. Like, honestly the most realistic way he could blow Gouken up for mashing sweep after cr.lk cr.lp is to focus. Or to just divekick in. Edit: Of course, or DP FADC. But he’s -1 if you block that and he can only do it so much. At that range you can probably backdash the DP because of spacing anyway. Or counter it.
Most people cancel cl.hp to tanden, which means they are definitely close to you. cl.hp actually gets punished by Gouken’s sweep if Seth doesn’t cancel, and sonic boom and SRK form a blockstring. Seth really doesn’t have an answer to you responding to cl.hp xx tanden with on-reaction sweep. You have a good amount of time to do it as well. Now, if Seth is doing cl.mp xx lp tanden, his options are a lot better. You have to guess. But if you guess right, you might win the round!
21 frames is so slow and easily reacted to. People can punish Ryu fireball on reaction at certain ranges with jump-ins. I play players that I can’t bait into doing it by whiffing normals, faking the qcb, etcetera. And Seth’s tanden loses to any poke that hits him in startup, and if he whiffs because you were too far away that’s equally bad. Shit you could just do an on-reaction EX Gouken flip to get a jump-in combo.
Seth’s tanden is most useful to punish whiffed normals and people just blatantly walking forwards. It really isn’t a go-to option for Seth the way Ryu will fireball and Dictator will Scissor Kick. This is because Tanden loses to simply walking to the correct range and hitting your best poke. You could just do s.hk at max range with Gouken and force him to rely on his real pokes, start jumping, or whoring out focus.
I’m not saying this is a good matchup for Gouken or that fighting Seth isn’t frustrating. I’m saying that your frustration is getting in the way of you recognizing the solutions to some of Seth’s options. A lot of those solutions are a lot more straightforwards than you’re making it. The onus is on you to stop him, but it’s not impossible.