Matchup: Gouken vs Yun

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
41

You do have some options. This is me vs hsien Chang in the first few weeks arcade UFO had AE on cabinet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdwkH6knh6A&sns=em
You can see the use of cr.ml being pretty good, and ex flips to get out of corner pressure followed by kara grabs lead to good things. Also, after U1, a hk gouken flip divekck beats ex up kicks. Don’t think anyone has mentioned that.

Ive now since learned, after playing hsiens yun like every day and getting my shit stomped, that it’s a hard 7/3 matchup, but with the smart application of normals and dedication to maintaing that sweet spacing( ~ a tad farther out then the farthest reach of goukens cr.MP) allows gouken to use relatively safe fireball pressure, anti air divekicks, and make general reads.
I’ve learned that stand mp is your best friend in this matchup, along with st fierce and cr,mp. All stop yun’s bullshit, and if you learn to stand block more, the stclMP becomes effective against divekicks because when you use it in place of where goukens now adays want to use cr.mk(which can trade), cr.fierce(gets stuffed at many ranges and angles of divekicks),or st.fierce ( loses to neutral jump into delayed divekick or jump in normals, the stMp will hit as far out as a crLK, and if they dive kick you’ll either get st.mp(stuffs divekicks), or a trade st far MP In your favor

Also. Reipen is completely right. The only way to stand a chance against good Yuns is smart risk taking, and I’d say some liberal use of shenanigans,lots of counter hit set ups( you’ll love when you corner a yum and get the fireball hit after cr.Mp and you reset with st HK to lead to even more pressure), and immaculate zoning and execution will secure victory. Don’t try to get the big touchdown in this matchup and throw a hail Mary or do some bullshit wildcat offense. Also, neutral jumps are a very under utilized tool as well.
Utilize goukens normals, always do max damage combos that lead to the corner, and don’t be afraid to try counter hit set ups and corner resets. Where you are going to lose 100% of the time is when you try to play gouken like he is on par with yun and try
To give him respect and play it like a normal matchup. You will also lose trying to counter shit all day, and trying to get safe jumps on EVERY knockdown.(fuck with him and don’t even jump sometimes).

Just thought I’d share, given my luck in having Americas best yun player @ my local arcade to play sets nearly every night.

42

Backthrow > lp.hado > sweep – HK Flip asap is an easy safejump setup vs twins

43

I beat the #3 Yun today and he told me he shouldn’t have expected smart things from me. I told him, he shouldn’t because I have to do real scrub stuff to beat Yuns.

He raped me the first round with his MP frame trap. He lost the second round because he kept doing his combo into that mp --> shoulder tackle frame trap. I put my ultra in the middle of one of those and killed him from half. In the third round, he did upkicks twice on wakeup and I punished him the second time for it. Later in the match, he didn’t block on his wakeup and got HP --> EX Palmed because I had tried to throw him all the other times before.

So I discovered a couple of things about Yun which might be useful.

His upkicks is 5 frames and the ex version is 4 frames. So he can be safe-jumped all day with demon flip after grab or sweep. Or as Reipin said, that’s an easy safe jump to do as well.
Upkicks cannot be FADCed apparently. If he whiffs, you can pretty much always ex palm or if he puts himself in the corner, get a full BnB.

44

Yun’s wake up was never an issue for me. It’s his relentless, safe, random pressure switching from &#(Q#!@!! safe divekicks to command grabs to that &$@)()!!! ex lunge punch to that damned genei jin rodeo. All of it is so friggin safe, his arms and legs are ridiculous, fast walkspeed, fast armor break, upkicks blowing up crouch tech…that being said I just try to knock him down and make him do something stupid on wake up. Once he’s standing up, the best you can do is bait a jump in and ex tatsu or shoulder and then sweep him. Still, I think Yang is harder because of his seeking srk kick thing that goes under fireballs, his easy chip damage combo, and his nasty resets.

45

Yea I’m kinda new (been playing for 3 months only) . I thought his upkicks were safe and you had to try and stuff them like SRKs. I found out today that they are actually 4 frames. There’s a lot I don’t know about SF that is pretty obvious to the older more experienced players. And I agree with your description of this match-up climaxter. Once Yun starts his rush, it’s real tough to get that little bastard off.

46

Anytime they do a string of light attacks where they are pushed back and will normally throw out the st M to st H TC or whatever it is, I’ve been having luck with kara back throw if I don’t use it enough to get predictable… Not much else I have to add that hasn’t been said.

47

Ok first off, fuck that guy. This has to be one of the worst matchups in the game. I’m sure he got to #3 in BP by doing completely smart shit like abusing mp xx shoulder…

NOTHING scrubby or unsmart about what you did. He obviously was a one trick pony who just repeats that same set up to cruise to victory, It’s awesome you recognized it and made him pay in the worst way possible. It’s not like you were mashing Ultra in the middle of a combo hoping he dropped a link. You recognized a pattern that was completely unsafe and took advantage of it. When I go for a frame trap with cl.st.mp and then cr.hp, if someone reversals in between that I don’t complain, they saw it, they recognized it, they took advantage.

Again, you analyzed and took advantage and then closed it out by training him to expect a throw on his wakeup everytime Once you had him trained you did st.hp to beat his tech attempt and get a 400 damage punish. How the fuck is any of this stupid or scrubby? If this is where you are at after 3 months I applaud you.

I am almost certain you can full punish from anywhere but it is tight timing, you should be able to walk forward a tiny bit after he does upkicks and do cr.hp xx EX palm. Test it out, you may not even need to walk forward, I don’t remember.

This is also a match where you can no FADC into Ultra from EX palm and get full hits. Learn it.
[/quote]

48

Well the second round kinda felt criminal to be honest. Killing the bastard from half felt good but it was one mistake on his part and he got blown up. And I think what he meant was that I had to resort to ghetto mind games instead of using my own tools to mix him up. I probably could’ve gone for more safe jump setups.
And thanks :slight_smile: I’m still learning though. I’ve pretty much just been playing Gouken and reading the stuff you guys post here; hopefully it is helping. I try to remember to do the cr.tech with c.mk you posted for yun/yang.

And I thought cl.st.MP to cr.HP was a combo or are you delaying the cr.Hp to fish for counter hits? It’s 2 frame. Kinda hard to do for me without plinking.

On a side note, a cammy told me yesterday that he knows a Gouken far superior to mine. PJS Puffington or something of that sort. Does anyone have replays of him? I’d like to see how he deals with certain matchups. Blanka especially. I hate that match-up. I recall being double perfected online where I couldn’t tech any grabs for some reason.

49

Ok first of all, mind games are not ghetto. If he is leaving holes in his blockstrings and CONSTANTLY doing the same string with a hole, that’s HIS fault for doing that. The fact that you realized what he was doing and took and advantage of it means you were not playing on auto-pilot and you were analyzing as you go. Gouken has VERY limited mix up potential, that’s not a strength of his game. That is Yun or Akuma. If Yun got so predictable that he got Ultra’d, well, I guess he wasn’t too good at mixing you up now was he?

In order to safe jumo him you need to get a hard knockdown, no easy task vs Yun. Furthermore, it’s not like a 4 frame DP is an all day automatic safe jump. You have ONE frame of error. Guy was just salty he lost a 7-3 matchup. Believe it. Should have told him if he had a “win” button he’d still lose.

cl.st.mp > cr.hp is a combo if you hit with cl.st.mp. Practice it in Training mode for 15 minutes a day. On block it leaves a natural 2 frame gap between the two moves which can be used for a counter hit set up. In order to get the set up to work you need to kara throw after cl.st.mp to get them pushing buttons.

Blanka online is a retarded character. If they are just hopping all over the place it’s really tough. That’s not how a match offline would go. That is punishable offline. That’s for another thread though, ask in the Blanka thread if you need help.

50

Is there something going on with the reel animation for the twins that fucks up Dive Kick tick throws?

51

Hi there, not a lot of replays of me about, never gotten quite around to it(though youtube has like 3 loaded up from some people seemingly rejoicing they got a win off me^^). I do eventually want to start getting some stuff up on youtube. I rarely read the matchup topics(as can be noticed by me replying what, 1 month after?), but I often check the most active topics in the gouken section.(for clarification, I am PJS Puffington on PC, PJS Creampuff is XBL only despite possible overlap, I separated the accounts for larger friends lists)

As Blanka goes Reipin has the right of it that that can be annoying as hell online, still doable though, as anything is and that is for another topic. You can PM me any questions you have about matchups though, I can try to help as best I can :slight_smile:

52

Man wtf is matchup?!

53

How do you fight a Yun?

This guy can get in on you with divekick or lunge punch even if reacting to fireballs. Now I’m stuck in defense not knowing where to do anything other than try to kongo dive kicks on reaction to neutral jumps (not the kick itself). This can’t be completely relied because once they start empty jumping, you’re in for some trouble.

54

I try my best to stay out of his divekick range and instead put him in mine. It’s a bs match up no matter what you do, though. If he’s neutral jumping or looks like he might do a divekick, diagonal jumping towards him with hk will stop a lot of that but it’s not a complete answer to everything. Both twins have stupid good frame advantage so you have to play hit and run and trap them with a lot of standing hp, which they walk into often. Pressure them on wake up if your safe jumps are good. Those up kicks aren’t as good as they believe they are. Always keep in you mind that you really, really hurt them with a few hits and they have to hit you a lot more to win. If he command grabs you, just curse Capcom.

55

I find this statement too easily said sometimes. Okay so I’ll walk back. la dee daa I now just walked myself back in the corner. (shrugs)

56

I didn’t say just walk back. There are a number of ways to get out of that range. I also accept that the match up is mostly one sided.

I suppose the rest of my advice is equally as useless…(shrugs)

I find people asking for help, and then criticizing the help in a rude way, pretty immature.(shrugs again)

57

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahhaahahha, sorry but i couldn’t stop laughing when i was reading this…
so aos, one simple question here, what yun has to do to get in??? dive kick right?? his version of palm, right?? or his shoulder move that avoids hados, right?? what else, jump??? ok…So if he jumps from a distance that is farther than 2 bodies you have st. mk, st. mp and st. hp and if he’s closer you can do st.lp, cr.hp and tatsu if you like, if he does his version of palm is -9… MINUS 9999999999!!! (But not EX) his shoulder hit is a pain in the ass for hados, but you can counter then, and if he jumps, i think you now your choice for that… our problem with him is when he gets in, he is a real power force because he is safe in almost all his chain combos, so that’s safe pressure for him… ohhh almost forgot, if he tries to dive kick up close, use cr tech with mk too, it will safe your ass!!!

58

Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off in such a tone. I was more or less expecting to hear what you would do specifically in such a situation. In doing so, perhaps I might try to develop something based off that.

That said, I like that cr.mk cr tech suggestion. I think I managed to catch him jumping up before any dive kick came out once. Once lol.

59

Have you tried jump forward hk? You can’t abuse it but it is a useful tool because you switch sides and should give you some space.

60

First off, try to never miss with EX Tatsu. If that means not even attempting it, then so be it, if you ask me. The set-back is not worth it in a serious, hard struggle match. The humiliation and enormous failure will boost the opponent’s confidence, and tear down your own.

OK, now moving on:

ZONING:

You can stay mid-screen away from Yun.

He can either jump, or “shoulder” through a fireball.

Against all opponent characters, you should spam LP fireball, and consider the diagonal fireballs as mouse traps. Place them with care, and try not to rush them in panic and confusion, as you risk a great deal for exposing yourself, as they are not safe if you’re too close.

So, you are now able to stay mid screen and throw LP fireballs. You are keeping an eye on your opponent’s body language, and you try to foresee when he might suddenly decide to jump - and in which case you preemptively counter his jump with a diagonal fireball.

So, if you pulled it off, Yun will be unsure of himself and hesistant to jump in because you magically catch him in the air with a fireball to palm juggle. But Yun can “shoulder” past them.

Just like with diagonal fireballs, you preemptively counter his shoulder attack by just charging your FA. If you succeed, you score a huge punish on his young juvenile ass.

GROUND FOOTSIES

If he simply walks closer, your best ground tool is cr. LK. Combo it with fireball, as it works surprisingly well. Cr. MP has poor “priority” compared to cr. LK, so if you are having a hard time, then use cr. LK instead of cr. MP…!!! Exclusively, until you’re confident and don’t feel like you need the advantages of the cr. LK.

Cr. MP is frankly more suited for frame traps.

You can mix up cr. LK->fireball with cr.LK->cr.HK (perhaps even better than fireball), and plus, you have tons of other options too. Maybe even HK Flip, just to get the fuck outta there, and fool him into jumping towards you, only to meet an EX Tatsu anti-air.

SUMMARY

Gouken is an old grand master, and we should be able to shut down a young hoodlum like Yun.

BONUS LESSON: EXPERIMENT ON YOUR OWN!

Play a round against a decent Yun, and use nothing but standing LK, standing HK, and crouching HK. 3 moves.

Then, advance to mixing in standing MP, crouching MP->fireball, etc.

Standing LK is a great footsie tool against small, fast characters who pressure you with their speed - by just walking towards you and not jumping and waiting for you to screw up. Standing LK will help you keep them away, standing HK will kick 'em in the gut and make them vomit, and crouching HK will sweep them off their feet.

But you have to succeed with your attacks! If you get counter-hit, you should have Kongoed! If you got baited, you shoulda seen through it!!! Gouken’s eyes CANNOT BE FOOLED!

Now get 'em tiger

absolutely all of them.

but kill them not, and hurt them not too much, either.

if you cripple anyone, the guilt will never let go.

FINAL LESSON

First, you need training with the game, characters, match-ups, character move properties, special move properties, etc - all the technical stuff has to be at “max”.

Secondly, you need to have confidence, and the goal to win.

If you still lose, the loss will not be hard to swallow, but it will conclude as a fun and rewarding match.

Try harder/ better/ smarter/ just differently next time. Sometimes against THE TOUGHEST OF OPPONENTS, he will be wide open to a FULL SCREEN DASH IN THROW, because he’s absolutely not expecting it.

As Feilong said: “Limits are all in your mind. Ignore them!”.

Also, Gouken has TOP-TIER ground-control (provided he is in control/ the one with the pressure).

Standing LK for crouchers, standing HK for simply grounded opponents, and standing MK for opponents trying to jump away.

you have all these buttons, all these moves - crouching jab, standing jab, close MP, cl.LK frame trap to cr. MK to LP Palm, fireballs, Denjin, SHIN SHORYUKEN, jump back heavy kick, jump forward HP to heavy punch them in the air, dash back to move outta the way, neutral jump to land with HP to pain-train, full-screen INVINCIBLE EX Flip for whatever ya please (just don’t let the oppoent expect it, ever!!), fireballs that are NEXT TO NONE, 1-FRAME KONGO!!! — put these fucking shit to good use!

If you still lose, it’s your fault and not Gouken’s.

I forgot charge fireball->FORBIDDEN shoryuken.