I’ve been quite curious on how Red Focus will help and hurt her in the grand scheme of things. How will players adjust to it?
I doubt I use red focus but seeing as we have a very slow armor breaker (we can even be hit out of it if we’re using EX) I think its ultimately going to hurt us. It might be worth it for some characters in the corner when they have a huge life lead to either force them to jump or break their guard for the kill (Zangief this would probably be crazy with when you’re using u2). Makoto doesn’t have trouble opening up the opponent so I don’t see it as a worthwhile cost.
Take this with a grain of salt though. We could find some practical use maybe.
I’m noob, so it’s not like these changes are going to help or hurt me win tournaments. But I think it’s pretty safe to say Lk/Mk Tsurugi is screwed now. Fishing with that move is over. Won’t be an option against characters with 3 frame jabs, shorts and reversals. Especially when they can combo into stuff from the jab. Which I think is everybody. I don’t have dat knowledge.
I was watching Haitani vs Juso earlier, and noticed he pressured/fished a lot with Tsurugi at close to point blank range (as he does in all his matches) I mean, that move is way too risky now if Sakura can go into her combos from a blocked Tsurugi. Among other characters that will be able to punish accordingly.
GG Tsurugi.
First of all, you’d need a frame perfect 3 frame move to punish it. Good luck outside of like chun/ryu super etc. Second, If you aren’t thinking about when to tsurugi and you have a nike` attitude then you’re doing it wrong.
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if it was possible to space LK/MK Tsurugi such that DPs whiff if one is attempted. The only matchups the -3 Tsurugi nerf really changes are the shoto matchups, and I think those are still workable with HK Tsurugi, anyway. Everyone else who LK/MK Tsurugi already worked on safely can still generally be LK/MK Tsurugi’d.
Well. All I know is that move is -3 at the lowest point. And bout everyone has a 3 frame jab, most characters can combo a lil something into em. Most Tsurugis aren’t necessarily done at the lowest point (from what I seen), that doesn’t go for the delayed ones in jump ins. So I only imagine the disadvantage would be a lil worst and easier to punish.
Well, like I said, I’m noob so it don’t affect me too much. I’m just a dude that likes to play games, and SF4 is one of em. So as far as when I do Tsurugis. I throw em out when I make it inside and start playing the footsie game, if they throw lots of lows, or if they go/I think they’ll try to escape a throw. Along with her other normals, hek ya I nike’ that move, hahah. I mean, why not mix it in along with the other moves for pressure? It’s safe on block from any distance from far to point blank range and pretty rewarding if it hits. IF, they’re letting me get away with it/not hitting me on the way up a lot. Then I try other stuff to counter their attempt to hit me out of a Tsurugi. But that’s neither here nor there.
In all reality, what I think about it don’t matter. But that’s what I think about it, and pretty much when I use the move. I just don’t see that move being used nearly as much if it can be punished by a jab, cause jabs lead into combos. Especially if you’re up on em close.
I know not every -3 frame move gets punished on the regular. Shoot, I see Haitani get away with EX hayate’s sometimes, and those are -4. It happens. But I also see the new Tsurugi being the equivalent to throwing those EX hayate’s out. Just something you probably don’t want to do unless you know it’s gonna hit or chip em out. And throwing out a Tsurugi is pretty much always a guess. Unless they’re dizzy, crumpled or after a Fuki.
But hey, no matter what I think. I’ll know the answer after watching good Makoto players after Ultra comes out.
i agree with jay on this one! it’s a big deal for me, I love using tsurigi in my pressure, even against shotos and this nerf changes everything. hey, nothing I can do about it so I guess i’ll have to adapt till they patch that shit and give it back, hopefully…
I’m not trying to say that it isn’t a nerf, I’m just saying that it isn’t as big of a deal as everyone is making it. It’s1/15th of a second. What it means is your pressure is over and it becomes much harder to follow up on it when its blocked. You aren’t going to get punished unless you’re being extremely predictable–which you can already get blown up for btw. The ability to punish something isn’t just frame data, it’s how far away you are from your opponent. Most players cant just frame punish in general. When you combine that with a lot of characters not having a jab that even reaches that far or has 4 frames or more of startup, its not even a problem. They’re trying to dimish Makoto’s offensive pressure, not make it unsafe. Tsurugi will still be a very viable frame trap, but if its blocked you aren’t going to continue. That’s all that this means.
As a side note, it was already -1. Realistically if everyone were capable of just frame punishing you guys would’ve been blown up for even trying to continue your pressure in the current iteration of the game. You’d have a 5 frame jab for all intents and purposes. Completely punishable.
er, quoted myself accidentally.
Forgot to add one thing. Regardless of how it turns out, I have three options. 1. Complain about it, 2. Just play the game given and deal with it, and 3. Switch my character.
Ima go with option #2 hahah.
I glanced at some other stuff like Cammy’s air drill thing. And if I remember right, it said the block stun will be 5 less frames or somethin. Not sure how much harder it’ll be for her to keep pressure and do another one right after with that change.
And then there’s Rufus’ s dive kick stuff. It seems like he gets to keep his dive kick pressure. Yun doesn’t seem as bad cause it doesn’t feel like he can do em as fast. I’m probably wrong and/or just haven’t played a good Yun yet. I dunno. It’s whatever. It just kinda sucks to nerf Makato’s air kick move but leave others the same. Cause they can get a pretty big reward for about no risk either. I guess it’s a trade off for her EX Fuki.
But whatever. I’m in option #2 lol, deal with it and play it.
We dont have a single special move that cant be punished on block. Tsurugi used to be the only one. That’s odd since we already have a unique flaw, our walk speed.
That’s really been the gist of my complaint. I know the Tsurugi leads to bigger damage now, but when you remove this option as a reliable movement tool is gimps the character even further. I know Tsurugi was different in 3S, but the parry system made up for this movement deficit, while the FA system doesn’t really cover this flaw in the character, IMO.
Gotta deal with it though. I’ll talk to Combo this weekend about what their thoughts were about it, see if I can get an official response at least.
I’m with Wirestyle,we don’t have to complain that much about Tsurugi. We lost a free pressure tool,but we gain a 3f hitconfirm with f.lp and many possibilities to deal some damage. If you get a punish from a blocked lk/mk Tsurugi then means your opponent predicted the move. What make Tsurugi that powerful is what we can get from it when we added that tool with the karakusa treat,now blocking wrong against Makoto becomes very risky and hard. Don’t forget j.mk! We can use that instead of Tsurugi since become more better now. Using our new crossup when the opponent think about block the tsurugi gonna be deadly. Against happy tsurugi Makoto good players can already punish all axe kicks attempts with a standing normal or a FA.
Is too early too be upset about that,when people starts to bee more worried about ex fuki,we’ll see how the tsurugi nerf isn’t a real game changer.
we’ll see!
I use cross up mk quite a bit in 2012 even though it sucks, I can only imagine what I’m gonna do in ultra with a better hit box… I have to say though, when I finally get dped after a blocked mk tsurigi in ultra my heart is gonna stop lol
Well, look at Ryu. His low forward fireball wasn’t a true block string but because players don’t know when Ryu will throw a fireball it isn’t as punishable as it seems on paper. That will also apply to Tsurugi. I don’t just blindly use Tsurugi as it is, I typically use it as a frame trap.
st. HP > Hayate Feint (+2 if i remember correctly)
If I perform the Tsurugi as low to the ground as possible intentionally trying to counter a low–which also applies to crouch tech in this situation, they’re getting hit 9 times out of 10. You can’t just react to it, it’s too fast. So now the opponent got blown up by it once. That leads to anything I want: ultra, st. HP > Hayate > nonsense, sweep > forward jump > lk karakusa frame trap > etc.
st. HP > Hayate Feint (+2) > st. MP (Counter-hit) > EX Fukiage > J. Fierce (low to the ground) > double dash under shenanigans etc
st. HP > Hayate Feint (+2) > st. lk > Karakusa (Frame-trap)
Note: Now the opponent knows he can’t just stand there. He’s either going to jump, backdash, or reversal you (if he has one).
st. HP > Hayate Feint (+2) > Nothing. See how they react. If Reversal, block and counter. If jump fukiage punish for huge damage. If nothing chances are they are going to go for a low, Tsurugi.
You’re telling me that these guys are going to react to a Tsurugi if you aren’t being predictable when its only -3? No freaking way. This is just one scenario too. st. MP is +2 on block, can we be real here for a second? Shits crazy. Trust me. We’re going to be fine.
I wish this was still valid, they nerfed EX Fuki stun ouput, and apparently ex fuki can’t cross under anyway.
But isn’t it pretty to look at
[quote=“Noocta, post:856, topic:151906”]
I wish this was still valid, they nerfed EX Fuki stun ouput, and apparently ex fuki can’t cross under anyway.
But isn’t it pretty to look at
When ultra goes live I’m going into the hyperbolic time chamber
There is a SERIOUS a-cho Ultra Mak here, starting at 32:40:
He clearly gives no fucks about the axe kick nerf.
Seeing that set got me hype as fuck. Mak is straight up murdering niggas. Also EX Fuki connects off max range c.lk at one point. Mmmmmmmmmm. And there wasn’t even any of the dirty reset shenanigans you can do off the EX Fuki in that set either.
Dat Koto… Bet my balls he’s Haitani.