That’s the one thing that could make it viable, yeah.
Overall, after a lot of thought and ranting, I think all of this is an even change or a slight nerf to the character at worst. I understand there’s more mixup potential with the EX Fuk buff, but you have to look at the fact we’ve lost a primary way to get that with LK/MK Tsurugi. It’s a read now, that can be punished… so it’s less reliable. Sure, we can do the HK version, but it’s a knockdown and the Fuk buff is null.
Not to mention an Tsurugi after an air reset is less viable, most likely taking it off the table.
I worry about what our reliable options are for beating crouch techs, aside from a few decent frame trap normals.
She will. This is what happens when you implement changes for the sake of changes instead of appropriate balance changes.
Why wouldn’t I abuse extra damage, extra stun, extra corner push and extra mix up for no additional cost of meter? No more c.mp into hayate for me anymore. It will be c.mp into EX fuki from now on. I’ll do FFS Ex Fuki after every karakusa now.
they have essentially limited our options as makoto players. nothing is really safe anymore! the game is full of characters with safe specials and plus frame normals on block… the backthrow, ultra 1, karakusa, and ex fuki nerf I can handle but the mk tsurigi nerf is major!
what am I going to do when I play against ryu, sit and wait for him to randomly wiff an uppercut so I can use the amazing grounded fuki?
Yea it kinda sucks that Mk Tsurigi got hit with that. And it’s -3 only if you hit/do it at the lowest possible point if I remember reading it right. I guess they figured the reward for landing that was too high without too much of a risk if it got blocked. Man, I really liked throwing that move out a lot too. I guess at a certain range it might be ok. Just not at point blank range where it’s the most useful .-.
That extra 4 frames isn’t much on whiffed Karakusa. But it’s still something. Most likely just means if you whiff it when someone jumps backwards, they’ll have a better chance to hit you with something. Which I guess is understandable. Seeing as the position that move puts you in if you get the grab. Especially now with EX Fuki hitting grounded opponents. But dam, that extra 4 frames might be enough for someone to hit you with certain Ultras if you whiff when they jump backwards. I don’t know if you could already, but if so, it’s definitely hitting you now, lol.
So I guess you can still be thrown out of an EX Oroshi then huh…? Unless I overlooked that.
How many times you get DPed from a blocked EX Hayate? It’s -4,but I don’t get punished so many times really. LK/MK Tsurugi gonna be -3? Ok,not good,but if you stop throwing them too much people still gonna have problems to punish. The new j.mk helps a lot here,we can use it to go crossup when our opponent sniff an upcoming tsurugi. You can do it right now,is incredible how many opponents fall to this “trick”.
With EX Fuki we can push the opponent to the corner more easily and without a good chunk of life,we can do it even from a f.lp,so we can go on. EX Karakusa it’s still the same,since is the version I use the most,the meterless version nerf don’t hit me that much. DP mashers gonna think twice about throw them out thanks to the FADC -5 nerf,they better be really precise with it. If we block the DP they’re FUCKED.
While this is true for most players, I think we’re talking about competitive play here. I have played some decent tourney players online, who are by no means pro, who have ex hayate punishes down…mostly cody players for some reason, I guess it has something to do with his great reach on crouching normals.
The worst effect of this change isn’t necessarily that we can potentially be punished, but that lk/mk tsurugi will almost definitely kill our pressure if it’s blocked. After a blocked tsurugi, even if they miss the punish, they’re still at enough advantage to mash jab out and beat whatever normal we do. So what does that leave us with? Ex choke? That’s heavily blockstun and range dependent, it will most likely be too far away. Forward throw? Might work, but we still lose pressure unless we take another risk. So our pressure is essentially gone. And against grapplers? That’s SPD for free now.
I’m thinking DP mashing will still be a thing, but people will just fadc backwards instead of forwards. Most characters have good enough backdashes to at least reset the situation after fadc backdash, so it’ll become a defensive, “GET THIS CRAZY GIRL OFF ME!” move rather than an offensive “PUSH BUTTONS AND GET ULTRAED!” move.
The only characters I can think of that can ultra off of backdash midscreen would be Sagat and Cammy. Others might be able to in corner, but hey. They nerfed cammy’s u1 damage on non animation, so that’s not too big of a deal, but sagat’s has been buffed if anything. Although his backdash might be slow enough to punish with ex fukiage if we block, which would be pretty sick.
A good sagat’s throw traps with DP are terrifying, if his backdash is punishable, that will help greatly in the MU for mak. Worst part of MU aside from that is random ex tiger knees, which I’m not sure how the buff is going to effect. It should be pretty much the same, since we couldn’t punish before anyways, his pressure afterwards might be slightly improved though. Not sure if the st. lk special cancel buff will make a difference in the MU, it really depends on what buttons it can beat from mak. I would not be too happy if I started seeing cr. mp get stuffed by st. lk buffered into tiger shot fadc normal x tiger knee though.
Only improvement I’m seeing is that we get better damage output with meter. Everything else is ass. Tsurugi is shit, Back throw range is worse, reward for landing U1 is lowered, EX Oroshi still sucks as a wakeup option, system changes work against her own oki and I don’t even get what they did to Karakusa
These changes not only make her worse but it would seem they are making her less fun to play in the process. Didn’t Combofiend say he had our backs or some crap like that? Yeah, thanks Combo, better situational damage output in exchange for everything else being worse seems like a fair tradeoff you shithead. Hopefully I’m wrong, but looks like I’ll be soul searching again once the game drops
100% disagree. System changes mess with MOST of the Oki with characters, but not Makoto as much. With delayed wakeup being 11 frames, we can still use the same safejump setups and just OS a st.mp (5 frame startup, and 7 active) which is meaty on the entire cast and perfectly meaty on everyone who gets up one frame later. Makoto benefits from delayed wakeup by basically removing option selects that beat backdash, so we can use backdash a bit more often. At the same time, our primary mixup is after an EX Fukiage into jump fierce reset… which completely negates delayed wakeup.
Keep in mind we still have soft knockdown setups and meaties from there as well, so it’s not like it’s all out of the picture. It’s just more work.
Exactly. Seaslug spoke with Combo at SCR, and he stated that EX Oroshi with throw invincibility was too much of a 50/50 on wakeup. I don’t know what you would call characters with invincible DP’s having then, but those were his words. Basically, either we got EX Oroshi with throw invincibility and Karakusa was counter-hit on whiff, or we got neither. I would have taken the CH, honestly.
I agree that DWU will help her more but the tsurigi nerf is huge!
how often do I get punished for using ex hayate online when it’s blocked, not that often. how often do I get punished offline against competent players when ex hayate is blocked, every single time! I’m pretty certain the same is going to happen with mk tsurigi.
Indeed EX Oroshi was never meant to be used on wakeup but their fault for flaunting that throw invul in our faces. And yes I’m pretty sure everyone here would’ve taken it regardless
If she has a reliable OS vs delayed wakeup then not so bad but it’s still kinda disappointing to see them mess with the stuff that makes her fun initially. I’d get rid of EX Fuki on standing all day for safer Tsurugi and big damage U1. They nerfed back throw because they felt the neutral jump stuff following was too good, yet they didn’t take into account delayed wakeup. Forward throw range is increased because… Combo bragged that Mak was getting some good changes but the damage with meter is the only positive thing I’m seeing here
Suppose I’m not as experienced as some of you here, what changes make her potentially a stronger character?
Tsurugi isn’t supposed to be safe,not even build to be used recklessly. This change was there because ATM Makoto takes too advantages from it. We have a ton of time to combo it in anything,meterless and practically safe. I don’t see people stop using Tsurugi,simply we gonna use that godlike tool with more brain. The plinked one was an huge discover and every good Makoto gain an outstanding tool in their arsenal,the move is already incredible. Add that to the new ex fuki and we have even too many options when we are close to the opponent. To make Tsurugi works well we need to mix it up with our other moves. Being at -3 means people need to punish at perfect frame,is way different from ex hayate where the opponent have one frame of advantage. Tsurugi is part of Makoto pressure,not the center of it. We have normals and a cmd grab to make it less important,thinking we gonna be punished for every attempted Tsurugi isn’t correct.
No need to be there to get punished by a bad spaced ex hayate
Hm, you clearly didn’t understand the intent of my post feroce, let me try to be a bit clearer then.
Yes, tsurugi is an amazing move, but there are quite a few ways to stop it. Ever played someone who mashes stand jab? Or people who focus a lot? Hell, even some moves like Akuma’s far st. HK will blow it up at anything but the perfect spacing.
Plinked tsurugi is another matter, because I’m talking about pressure here, which assumes you’re already close to your opponent, plinked tsurugi is more for getting in than pressuring. And I often use plinked HK tsurugi over the others because of the better hitbox.
Again, not really what I was trying to say. Let me just quote myself here:
And as you said, there’s plenty of time to confirm tsurugi into whatever. Well, since it has so much blockstun, the reverse is true too. Our opponent has time to see that they are in blockstun and then mash jab. This will either punish or stop pressure. So this change essentially makes it so that if we tsurugi, we’re making a hard read on button presses. If we make the wrong read, then at worst we’re punished and at best we’re back to neutral.
As for tsurugi not being the center of our pressure…that maybe true. But you can’t say that it isn’t a large factor in her pressure. I don’t really think makoto’s main threat comes from the choke anymore. The tsurugi, especially in the corner, builds fear of escape and throwing. It’s also amazing at setting up ambigious throw mix ups on your opponents wake up, which won’t be as big of a factor in ultra with DWU.
Here’s an example: Ex hayate -> fwd lk reset in corner. Your options: Against escape or stand throw, tsurugi wins. Against normals or blocking, choke wins. Against reversal, blocking wins.
Currently, if you go for the tsurugi read in this situation, you can continue pressure afterwards. But I guarantee you if you do so in ultra, many players will get out of the corner after the tsurugi if they block. Either from mashing jab or landing a throw. Again, even if they miss the punish, they still get the momentum. Which means, instead of going for tsurugi…which isn’t a “mindless” use of it as you suggested, I will probably go for frame traps instead because those don’t carry the same choreographed gap as a tsurugi will.
Can’t believe y’all are being so negative in here. A ton of our bad matchups are getting nerfed way harder than we are. In addition, we no longer have to rely on the corner to lay the hurt on folks. Tsurugi nerf is the only one that kinda sucks but I think we’ll be able to adjust to it.
