Nice liluoke. I’ll update the OP post and bump the thread up.
sadly all these setups gets dominated by umeshoryu…I’ve been using c.lk cs. hp and it’s def effective against late tech. I really was searching for an answer against how to frame trap jab heavy balrogs and i think the answer likes within c. lp c. lk frame trap. How do you guys effectively deal with jab spam during combos?
Wooo, this thread inspired a post I made in my own thread in the Sagat forums. This is it. http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=197350&p=8466050&viewfull=1#post8466050
Thanks again for the inspiration Dictator forums.
If you think like that, don’t play this game. Because every character has risks to take. Even uppercuts that get baited.
As for the Balrog bit… I chain c.jab him out of his c.jab range (to push him away) and fish a counter hit with c.MP/c.MK against his sweep. It’s random but… it’s extremely difficult and almost impossible to deal with his jabs if you’re blocking it unless you are CPU
For jab spam you just use standard frame traps. Nothing too fancy. Low short links (c.lk) That leave a 2 frame gap will crush people who try to spam jab between your links.
haha thanks for the honor for being on the front, but actually most of what i wrote up is just the frame traps you had on the first page already but i just included how many frames were in between each, and categorized them based on how many frames are between, so we’d know which ones would beat a jab and which ones wouldn’t. i only really added c.mp, s.hk/s.mk, and the post s.hk ones.
i guess there’s plenty of frame traps, but which ones do you guys have most success at landing? my favorite one is probably c.lk to c.mk…
thank you, nah thank you the honor is mine, no no no i was just helping you do what you were already doing…BLAH BLA HBLAH GERT A ROOM! Is this how black market warlords are supposed to act? Man up, lets bomb a cruiser or something.
I’m excited for Super…mad Dic love coming up
psycho crusher everything.
This thread should DEFINITELY be stickied.
What is everyones favorite frame traps to use? Im having trouble incorporating anything except cr. mp - st. rh.
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when i’m doing tick throw and people smell it coming, i like mixing it up with c.lp, close s.lp -> s.hk. you might get a counterhit and be able to land two s.hk. i think that’s one of the best uses of frame traps; to beat crouch tech when they’re expecting you to throw. but yeah, this really only works again crouch tech mashers. so yeah, c.lp, cl.hp to catch people who properly do it.
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i also like to c.lk -> c.mk when i’m at tip c.lk range whenever i can, which is pretty situational of course
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c.lk to cl.hp, c.lkxxscissor frame trap is pretty sick.
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finally, something i didn’t mention before is because c.mp startup is kind of slow (7 frames), you can use a s.lk which is alot faster (4 frame startup) to lead into it. since s.lk gives +3 on block like c.mp, you can do this:
s.lk, (4 frames in between), c.mp, (3 frames in between), s.mk or s.hk.
cuz i dont have sf right now i haven’t really tested it but i saw it used in a few matches and it’s a good way to lead into the c.mp->s.hk frame trap while making a second s.lk->c.mp frame trap beforehand. b/c between s.lk and c.mp is 4 frames, be sure to use this outside of jab range cuz otherwise you’ll probably get stuffed
I use…
c.LK-> CLOSE s.HP, c.lk xx Scissors
c.LK-> CLOSE s.MK, c.MP xx lk Scissors
c.LP, c.LK-> s.HK, s.HK
c.LP, c.LK-> c.MP xx lk scissors
c.LP, s.LP-> s.HK, s.HK
Dunno if this really counts but I also do c.LK walk forward SLIGHTLY s.LK, s.HK
I like
cr.lp, cr.mp, cr.mp xx scissors.
early j.mk, st.close fierce, cr.short xx scissors.
Alvien listed a lot of really good ones. I have the most success with cr.lp, cr.mp, cr.mp xx scissors because most people aren’t the best crouch techers. for people who are precision crouch techers, anything using st.close fierce is really really good. If they are mashers or not as good with crouch tech but still know how to use it in rhythm to an extent, the st.close fierce one will end up getting you counterhit more often than not. something with less of a gap is better so cr.lp, cr.mp or cr.lk, cr.mp is better. use cr.lk or cr.lp depending on whether they have three frame moves or not. if they do, use the one with less of a gap. if they don’t, use one with more of a gap.
j.mk, st.close fierce is really good overall. can catch bother mashers and people who will actually wait for you to land before trying to tech.
Thought this thread was gonna get buried. I guess I’ll update the first post when I get the time to compile everything.
i fucking respect this thread.
i really like the way liluoke organized the traps by distance: i think spacing adds an important dimension to frame trapping in sf4.
what i’ve been doing lately is trying to exploit the improved vertical hitbox on s.rh and trying to train my opponent to respect my c.shorts for a couple of more frames. so i’ve been doing stuff like, c.lk, s.rh, c.lkx2, s.rh, etc.-- looking to exploit the max range on the c.lk. the 5frame gap between c.short, s.rh (blocked) seems quite large, but theres not a lot of c.shorts in the cast that can reach bison at max range of his. so the idea is push them out of range for their c.shorts, but still in range for your boot in their face. i’ve been surprised at how rarely i’ve been reversal’d in between. not to mention, if you hit or CH with the c.short, the gap shrinks to 2-1frames. for me, the s.rh is blocked like 70% of the time, and hits like 20-30%. the real utility to this tactic is the psychological frame advantage you gain on your c.shorts. doing this has opened up the avenue of pressure to stuff like c.lk, c.mp (6frame gap, but frame adv. on block), c.lk, walk-up, s.lk…
which leads me to s.lk. i have been surprised that as the game has evolved, this move hasn’t become a more pronounced centerpiece to bison’s pressure game. 4frame startup, +3/+6 on block/hit seems to be pretty money to me. i have gotten away with [s.lk xN, walk-in s.lk, repeat] against competent players. sadly, i am so conditioned to filling empty space with c.lk, my s.lk metagame sux. it is limited to, s.lk: s.lk, tick throw, s.rh… and it’s a wild uneducated slot machine guess what i do with those +3 frames most of the time. very different from the focused, calculated button presses a thinking balrog player makes off a blocked c.jab. i would like to see the US bison community exploit the potential of s.lk more fully. not only so i can be lazy and steal setups (LOL), but because i think it can develop some distinct new lines of playstyle with the character.
favorite frame trap for me is c.lp>s.cl.lp-s.hk and c.mp>c.mk,c.lk>SK
the reason I like the first one so much is beause you can conditon someone to tech after s.cl.lp and then tag them with a nice roundhouse to keep them honest. the second one I like because you can choose to keep it tight and a solid blockstring or leave that little gap and make it a frame trap. The first one will also combo if you link it too tight but I find it works well against shotos for the reason that they can’t DP through it if you think they are you just keep it tight and you won’t get reversaled. Seems less risky in the end really is all it boils down to for me. I do use other ones too but those two are my Fav : )
As effective as this stuff may be, I find it funny that, essentially, it’s just a way to deal with throws being as shitty as they are in SF4 by using the fact that block stun sucks.
Obviously this stuff will never work on a mashing idiot. I guess SF4 is a much more layered game than would appear at first glance. Too bad it’s not in the way one would hope.
^its exactly what I hoped for! Bison to get a couple tweeks and damaged to get nerfed on the shotos. I do wish that Sagat did more than 40 damage on the second hit of his TK though.
Throws aren’t bad. They aren’t overpowered, but they’re definitely not bad. Block stun could be better, but I like the way the system works now. You don’t get stuck for an hour without nothing to do except hold back.
Does this work on a masher? Kinda.
Short, Short, walk back, short xx scissor punishes whiffed SRKs. If the other person whiffs the SRK, that’s an even bigger punish (up to Ultra!). And yeah who told you SF4 wasn’t layered? Probably some noob who doesn’t like the game because he or she sucks at it.
Was the reversal system in vanilla frustrating and overly rewarding to shotos? Yeah, but things are much better now.
I can agree that throws are important, but at the same time they are just plain bad in this game. Can you imagine how much better the game would be if the tech window was smaller and if you couldn’t crouch tech?
Think about that for a minute.
As for the mashers, I still don’t consider “doing nothing because any option you have will be beat by the other guy wailing around like an idiot” as a high form of mind game. Watching inputs during replays makes me sad.
Throws could be better, but it’s a delicate line. I don’t want it to return to Hyper Fighting where you lose a third of your health over one throw.
And yeah, trust me, I know how much BS shoryukens are. I’ve bitched many times before over them. As much as I believe dragon punches risk vs. reward are in shotos’ favors, if you play right, you can easily beat mashers. You just gotta play enough of them to know what to do. It’s lame, but you have to bait them constantly and keep punishing it until they’re afraid to do anything.