This list DOES NOT CONTAIN ALL of Bison’s Frame Traps!
Since this incarnation of Dictator can’t capitalize on a single opening (i.e. Touch of Death, Paint the Fence), we have to use everything we can to our advantage. So I’ve been studying frame data and have compiled a list frame traps. Basically, frame Traps are setups that punish players that press a button in between an attack string.
Frame traps aren’t 100%, since they rely on your opponent pressing a button AND the opposing character’s frame data. And obviously, frame trap attempts will lose to moves that have invincibility, like a Shoryuken. Once you teach your opponent that they should NOT press buttons or crouch tech, then that opens them up for tick throws - which Bison is great at.
For example, st.short has a 4 frame startup, and leaves you at +3 frames on block. Let’s say you cross someone up with j.forward, and go into Bison’s BnB cr.jab -> st.short -> cr.forward xx scissors. Now if the opponent blocks and tries to crouch tech between the st.short and cr.forward, he can theoretically be hit by the cr.forward because it has a 5 frame startup. The opponent’s attack will get stuffed before it is in active frames, since they have a 2 frame window to attack. Aside from certain special/super/ultra moves, such as Zangief’s command grabs and Akuma’s Super Demon, no one has an attack that is faster than 3 frames.
However, whether the frame trap is successful or not depends on if the opponent presses a button to begin with, and how precise they are while doing it.
Naturally, a successful frame trap will cause a counter hit and therefore open up some combo opportunities as well as deal some extra damage.
4 Frame Window
cr.jab -> st. forward
cr. short -> cr. forward
6 Frame Window
cr.jab -> cl.fierce
7 Frame Window
cr.short -> cl.fierce
The significance of why these are categorized by the window is so you can choose which frame trap to use in any particular moment. For example, if you notice that your opponent is mashing on crouch tech at every opportunity, use a frame trap that has a smaller window.
On the other hand, if your opponent is being patient and trying to crouch tech late or “on reaction,” use a frame trap that has a larger window, or simply delay your next attack.
Here’s some more in depth analysis from liluoke:
**Additional Frame Traps **
From a successful Frame Trap CH, you can hit confirm into a combo that can deal heavy damage as m16ghost highlights here:
FANTASTIC thread idea exceed. its unfortunate that we’re all trying to make as much use of this as possible this late in the game considering bison has a lot of potential for frame traps other than the standard scissor kick loop, which is SORT OF a frame trap. to me it’s just putting bison in a great position for pressure especially against characters without three frame moves (few).
anyways I came across something VERY interesting. cr.lk xx scissors is a THREE hit combo keerect? Well in this video, our friend Tsukiji TRADES a close st. Fierce against Rufus and then does cr.lk xx scissors…what really caught my eye was that it registered as a 4 HIT combo. I had to rewatch it over and over again just to make sure my eyes weren’t deceiving me but unless scissor kicks magically use bison’s third leg to get an extra hit, trade close st.fierce can be comboed off of…i don’t know if this is MOVE specific, like dependent on what button your st.close fierce trades off of - or if it’s character dependent, i.e. against Rufus or large characters in general…but either way it’s very very interesting that bison could actually be able to get a bit of damage off of a trade. it’s no trade TU, f roundhouse, Ultra, but it’s SOMETHING and it gets you that knockdown.
check it out y’all, start paying attention around 15 seconds in.
[media=youtube]rZUjFb1EO9s[/media]
you’ll notice there is no counter hit here, just a trade pure and simple, and I’m assuming it was off of rufus crouch tech OS which puts out his cr.lp, his fastest crouching normal. both rufus’ cr.lp and bison’s st.fierce is +4 on hit…BUT…that should mean they were totally neutral if they traded perfectly…im not sure how trades work in this game, how hit stun gets divvied out and what is possible universally off of trades, but i suppose the only way this is possible off fo a frame fluke is if st.fierce traded during it’s last active frame…actually i dunno im kinda talking out of my ass…i guess the point is that how the hell is bison going to maintain enough frame advantage to combo into a cr.short if he is in hit stun? it’d have to be like 1 frame hit stun for this to be possible i suppose. it’s just weird and im no good with frame math. im really hoping that this is a special property of st.close fierce. it might just be a frame fluke, a weird ‘glitch’ of sorts wtih st.close fierce, totally specific to rufus or rufus’ crouch tech OS, or whatever…but it’s still very intriguing and deserves to be researched in the lab.
maybe some frame warriors can put together some hypothesis on how this should work. it seems like it will be difficult to test out but im going to try it tonight, just record dictator doing cr.lp, st.fierce, cr.lk xx scissors against rufus and then try and mash crouch tech after blocking bison’s cr.lp and see what happens. will do the same with other characters and try and see what’s up but im feeling lazy so someone feel free to beat me to the punch.
this is nothing game breaking but it’s still kind of excting to have potentially uncovered something new with dictator this late in the game!
I am just now understanding these with bison (frame traps)… but it seems to me like going for real damage>frame traps with bison, well for the most part. everything has its use but it seems like most pros and good players in general know when to mash and when to be safe, making alot of block stings inaffective compared to guarenateed damage with combos that link. i think frame traps are also very character specific in terms of what characters they are usful against and which ones likely getting you ultra’d.
ryboy, i think i see what youre saying but the risk/reward is significant.
[media=youtube]KxEupfhZQ90[/media]
uryo is arguably one of japan’s best vipers. look what happens here. Tsukiji lands a cr.lk but then options for a close st.fierce, cr.lk xx scissors instead. He gets the counter hit and finishes the combo for HUGE damage. my guess is that viper said, hey he can finish the combo but if he decides to go for a tic throw instead i will tech it, so i will mash crouch tech or whatever button just as an insurance policy that he fails the combo. instead of just taking his hands off the controller he pushed buttons and was totally punished for it. if he just continued the short short short combo he would have gotten like half the damage he got.
it can be worth it, but its ultimately up to the player and the way youre feeling the match is going. as for being character specific, not really. all of this is based off of three frame moves being the fastest moves in the game. if you’re worried about getting reversaled by not using a true blockstring (bison has only one), then i guess that’s a legitimate concern but once again its not so much matchup specific as player specific, as in how you’re conditioning the opponent and how you feel about the way they will react.
if you think they’re going to mash DP through your unsafe blockstring then you should be ready to win the match. there’s a lot of ways to test the waters and make your opponent scared to mash. jump in fierce xx teleport, jab chains to EX headstomp, three jab chains then block (cannot be thrown if you simply pause at that distance), just use a safe blockstring (cr.lp, st.lp, cr.lk xx scissors) whatever. there’s a multitude of ways to bait a reversal masher.
at highe level play knowing when to mash and when not to is exactly waht you’re taking advantage of. you want to fool your opponent into thinking its a good idea to try and crouch tech and that’s when you use your frame traps to get that sweet counter hit. if you want to fool your opponent into NOT crouch teching this is when you go for tic throws. youve got it the other way around i think.
nah i actually have no clue where the hell that came from…wait…ah yeah i was looking up what the timestamp code is for youtube and that was the example link so whoopsies. edited and fixed! please check it out i wanna see what you guys think
Ok, take what I’m saying with a grain of salt because I’m not 100% positive.
Basically what’s going on here is that Rufus is negating Bison’s recovery frames for the cl.fierce. So normally Bison’s cl.fierce leaves him at +4 frames, but since he is hit out of the active frames of this attack by Rufus’ cr.jab/cr.short (13 frames of hitstun), he has more frame advantage than he normally would if he had hit the cr.fierce clean. Again, normally he would be at +4 frames on a clean hit, but in this case he can get up to +9 frames. 22 - 13 = 9.
Note that Bison’s cl.fierce gives 22 frames of hitstun, so in the BEST case scenario for this trade, Rufus would crouch tech at the earliest possible time and leave Bison at +9 frame advantage. Of course, that is very unlikely since the button inputs for both players would have to be perfect. However, this trade will probably produce a big enough window for a cr.short (as seen in the video), or maybe even a cr.forward or cr.strong.
Again, take this with a grain of salt. I probably fucked up the math somewhere (just woke up), or I’m just completely wrong to begin with.
Nah exceed, I think you’re right. On a trade it isn’t about +/- frames, since that assumes the move goes through its full recovery. Instead you have to look at raw hitstun frames, since both players are in hitstun, and s.FP wins out big in this case.
Actually, I thought about it a bit and I think I was wrong, but I wasn’t too far off.
Okay, so Bison was hit during the active frames of his cl.fierce, and he didn’t go through his normal recovery frames since he traded with a cr.jab/cr.short from Rufus.
Knowing that, it’s just like del1rium said, it’s all about raw hitstun frames. In the case of a trade, Rufus’ cr.jab/short gives 13 frames of hitstun, and Bison’s cl.fierce gives 22 frames of hitstun. That said, Bison has a +9 frame advantage if I did the math right. You could combo a cr.strong xx RH SK for some big damage.
Also, I was thinking about the cr.short -> cl.fierce frame trap that I’ve seen Kuma and Tsukiji do on numerous occasions. When I first saw it and did the math, I noticed that the opponent has 7 frames to attack you. It’s a pretty big window when you think about in terms of the startup frames of an attack, but it’s much smaller when you think about when your opponent will press a button.
Any good player won’t be jamming on crouch tech during a block string, but rather they do it in a very methodical rhythm that coincides with your combo. Some players don’t even do that and would rather late tech a throw - which is probably the best idea.
So when thinking about a frame trap, it’s not only dependent on the frame data, but your opponent as well. Unless you’re playing a cyborg that hits you out of every tick throw and frame trap PERFECTLY and on the very first frame possible, you should change the particular frame trap you’re using, if you decide to use one at all.
c.strong -> c.strong. I recently saw it used like this (too lazy to pull the video): blocked crossup, c.jab, close s.jab, c.strong, c.strong xx scissors.
No, it’s not gonna catch the crouch-tech (definitely the first I’ve ever heard about frame-trapping being based entirely around ‘three frame moves’). But depending on the opponent/situation, this sort of string allows you to use your frame advantage to lock your opponent down.
FROG55JON special (Close.) St Mp to Cr Mk to St Hk seen no other bison use it.
Jump in Hp to (Delayed.) St ( Mp or Hp) to Cr lk to lk Scissors.
I have 30 more all work great. Then mix in throws… So many I would love to share them all, I would recommend 2 and 3.
If you are playing a jab happy player 3. is pure merkage to their Health.
Impressive, I honestly wish I was smart about frame data like you guys are. This is some really fantastic news, especially this late into the game. It’s wild how even years later, new data can be squeezed out of a game because of hard thinkers like yourselves.
Just so you guys know. Pretty much all of Bison’s pressure that doesn’t involve chain cancelled low jabs are natural frame traps. I’m guessing Capcom didn’t expect OS tech to be so strong and someone like Bison would be able to abuse frame traps to nail CHs on people that thought maybe you were gonna go for a throw so they attempt to tech and eat a CH combo.
I like using cr.strong x 2 if you train an opponent to throw a poke to stop scissor or fa it. If you get CH it’s cr.strong x2 into sk.If he FA’s the second hit buffer sk.And if he blocks dash in throw/pressure.
Here is a few example I have come across of frame traps.
In a match between PPN (Dhalsim) and Azaryuna (Dic) I spotted 2 examples of a frame trap.
[media=youtube]gRf-zELSLOU[/media]
At 43 seconds in Sim blocks a c.lk and then is hit by a cl.hp counter hit into st.hk.
At 1.27 again Sim blocks a c.lk and is again hit by a cl.hp into st.hk but interestingly there is no counter hit message after the cl.hp yet the roundhouse appears to still combo after the cl.hp. Just before that there was a counter hit message when Dic hits Sim out of one his air normals after a teleport. Perhaps the game can’t display another counter hit message right after a previous counter hit message.
Hisaya (Ken) vs Tuc (Dic)
[media=youtube]B7H6M06rTDU[/media]
At 1.45 Ken blocks a c.lk and for his trouble gets a cl.hp counter hit into c.lk xx scissors.