insightful
Why not trap with c.LP into CH s.HP?
Well c.lp does give a less generous window of opportunity to your opponent but maybe people prefer c.lk because its Bisons fastest move.
Most frame traps work better if your opponent is trying to mash out a poke. They work less effectively when someone is trying to time OS tech to your rhythm thanks to absolute guard. I find it’s better to leave a slightly wider frame gap to punish OS tech abusers. So something like low jab to stand fierce or stand roundhouse would work better for this.
^ if youre liking this thread nerdlord, you should checkout the psycho science thread. shits bumpin.
Nice finds everyone. It looks like the cr.short -> cl.fierce trap is pretty popular! Please keep posting up new frame traps as you find them!
surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet. cr.mp is +3 on block. cr.mk is 5 frame startup, active on the 5th frame. thats a one frame window right? or is it two? anyways when I jump in, sometimes I mix it up and just do cr.mp, cr.mk xx short scissors. lately I’ve been nailing people with cr.mk…and I’m thinking dude what were you doing??? so yeah that’s a frame trap right there. there’s a widdle gap between cr.mp and cr.mk on block so if they’re pushing anything they eat it.
so what im using now is cr.lk to s.close fierce as a frame data rubric for making up frame traps. so cr.lk is only +1 on block (fuck you capcom), and st.close fierce has an 8 frame startup, active on the 8th frame so we’ll just say 7. So there’s a 6 frame window before your fierce becomes active, yet if you even test this out in training mode and you’re trying to mash OS tech or push any button, you’ll eat that fierce more often than not.
so here’s some i’m going to test out that should theoretically work:
-cr.mp (+3), far standing fierce (11 frames, active on the 11th): there’s a 7 frame window gap, only one frame more than the rosetta stone.
-cr.mp (+3), cr.mp (7 frame startup, active on the 7th): there is a 3 frame gap here. You can jump in and do cr.mp, cr.mp xx short scissors.
-close standing jab (+4), st.close mp (7 frame startup, active on the 7th)…not sure if you can do a st.close mp from a close st. jab…st.far mp (8 frame startup, active on 8th) : 2 frame gap for st.close mp, 3 frame gap for st. far mp. you could do something like cr.lp, st.lp, far st.mp.
-cr.lp, st.lp (+4), cr.mp (7 frame startup, active on 7th) xx scissors or whatever: 2 frame gap.
-cr.lp, st.lk (+3), cr.mp (same as above): 3 frame gap, may be preferable to the above
-The Frog55on special lol: close standing mp (-1 on block…), cr.mk (five frame startup, active on the fifth), st. hk (6 frame startup, active on the sixth) : hmmm if st.close mp is -1 on block and you go for a cr.mk you are open for 5 frames, but this is less than cr.lk, close fierce. it should work theoretically. cr.mk on block is -1, so you are open for 6 frames till your s.roundhouse is active.
The c.LK, s.HP string is useful to beat the OS low tech, not so much as a regular counter hit setup, so you should only use it against good players who know how to low tech properly (which means to delay to it, if you mash it you will never escape a throw). If you use it against players who just mash fast hits into your blockstrings dictator will get CH himself. Two prime examples for this would be low jab mashing boxers or low tech mashing dictators, they will CH and combo you for doing that string. I think this was actually already discussed a few months ago here in the dictator forums though, but I’m not too sure.
edit: just found a blog entry from Mariodood, he explained it pretty well here: http://www.shoryuken.com/entry.php?b=307
how exactly does the cLK sHP work? Most of the time I try it or use it, i never get close standing HP to come out, I get the other one (and eat punishment)
and Vega Red, how exactly do you ‘low tech properly’?
I am afraid I sorta am guilty of just mashing tech throw or back teleport whenever dudes jumpin on me.
read mariodood’s post. it explains it all pretty clearly, and you can record a dummy doing a blockstring and tic throw on you and you can practice the timing. i always just tap throw timed to the rhythm of my opponent’s attacks.
the cr.lk, st.fierce works when you’re directly up in their grill, you have to be point blank. my setups for this is meaty FA level 2, dash forward, cr.lk, st.fierce, cr.lk xx scissors.
record bison doing this in training mode against you and then try and block and tech after the cr.lk. you will eat the fierce 90 percent of the time. make sure the FA hits you meaty though, and by that i mean with the last active frames.
Hey yall don’t make sooo much noise about this capcom just may fix this in the next installment. any way what do you catz make of this.
Im seeing a lot of players like Kim1234, Kuma, tuc etc etc hit a string of crlk x3 or 4 and then end it with a crHP, whats the point of that?
Kuma does it here against Akuma at 0.19
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordAbor.../6/mPE9pUPJsRg
and also against saws chun at 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordAbor...13/8qeZ8Q3JTqE
Kim1234 does it here aswell at 0:19
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordAbor.../1/LRPth9as7RA
What it do? frame trap or no trap?
none of those links work Flashy
Working links:
[media=youtube]mPE9pUPJsRg[/media] (Kuma vs. Akuma)
[media=youtube]8qeZ8Q3JTqE[/media] (Kuma vs. Chun)
[media=youtube]LRPth9as7RA[/media] (Kim vs. Ken)
Trap, but a risky one. c.LK is +1 on block, c.HP has a 12 frame startup. Yuck. It’s also -2 on hit. Yuck again.
Theory Fighter time: They’re definitely fishing for a counter hit, which would make it +1 on hit … nothing terribly special. If you FADC’d the c.HP I believe you’re at +5 (on hit)*, so you could combo from that. CH c.HP xx FADC, c.LKx3 xx MK SK is 253/465 … doesn’t seem too shabby. On block if you FADC I think that still puts you in a nice setup for a tick throw.
- Just tested this and you can only combo c.LK, c.LP, and c.MK, off the FADC, so it seems like +5.
Did some testing, cr.short x4 -> cr.fierce puts you at a distance where a SRK can’t hit you - provided that the DP doesn’t hit your outstretched arm. I guess the advantage is that they have a huge window to throw something out, and cr.fierce can whiff punish or stuff.
If they whiff a DP or something, then you can punish with whatever.
what about the cr short x2 level 2 FA that Kuma is soooo fond of doing?
Just as a precaution, a few characters have supers that hit faster than 3 frames, most notably Chun. I wouldn’t be worried about it, but it’s certainly possible to eat one if you fish for counterhits too often.
this thread needs more attention.
I thought to organize the frame traps in this manner, plz let me know if you think this is a good way of categorizing (close range vs medium range use frame traps, since jabs are pretty close range you want to use frame traps that beat jabs when you’re within range of them)
something i noticed too is that you don’t execute the frame trap perfectly (like the close range frame traps), you’ll trade instead of beat the jab like you theoretically can, which isn’t bad for the first and third close range frame traps since they’ll trade with a roundhouse or c.mk
BISON?S FRAME TRAPS ON BLOCK
Close Range (w/in 3 frame jab range) Frame Traps
-These frame traps have a less than 3 Frames Gap (Can beat 3 frame jabs and throws)
These are good vs jabs because at best you’ll counterhit them and if you mess up slightly on the second input timing you’ll probably still trade
a. cl.Lp, s.Hk
i. cl.lp gives +4 on block, s.Hk starts up in 6 frames
ii. This frame trap gives 2 frame window for counterattack (probably a jab) against you
iii. great because you can do a second s.Hk on counterhit. You'll want to mix this up with c.lp, cl.lp, throw. of course they can reversal you after the cl.lp to get out of your otherwise 50/50 mixup
b. c.Lp, c.Lk
i. c.lp gives +2 on block, c.lk starts up in 3 frames
ii. This frame trap gives 1 frame window for counterattack
c. c.mp, c.mk
i. mp gives +3 on block, c.mk starts in 5 frames
ii. This frame trap gives 2 frame window for counterattack
Medium range (out of jab range) Frame traps
-
These Frame traps have exactly 3 frames gap Between First and Second move (Trades with jab, beats throw)
I think these should be done outside of jab range because at best you’ll trade your second move with a jab and if you accidentially input the second move too late the jab will actually counterhit youa. c.mp, s.Hk/s.Mk i. c.mp gives +3 on block, s.Hk/s.Mk both start in 6 frames (hit on 6th) ii. This frame trap gives a 3 frame window for counterattack against you b. c.Lp, c.Mk i. c.lp gives +2 on block, c.mk starts up in 5 frames ii. This frame trap gives 3 frame window for counterattack
-These frame traps have 3+ Frame Gap Between first and second move (Second move will be counterhit by a jab)
Never use this within jab range because you will almost always be counterhit. but when dealing with slower moves (as is the case when you are in medium range, aka out of jab range), this is an excellent frame trap
a. c.Lk, c.Mk
i. c.lk gives +1 on block, c.mk starts up in 5 frames
ii. This frame trap gives a 4 frame window for counterattack
iii. [media=youtube]B7H6M06rTDU[/media] ~0:14 ~1:35
Good when the blocked c.lk pushes them just out of jab distance, so they are forced to use a longer range (and thus slower) move
Special Anti-Crouching Tech Frame Trap
As explained by Mariodood, and others
1. c.Lk, cl.Hp, c.lkxxscissor
a. c.lk gives +1 on block, cl.Hp starts up in 8 frames (hits on 8th)
b. Huge 7 frame window for counterattack against you, This frame trap supposedly used to stop people who know how to delayed crouch tech properly
c. This will lose against jab mashers and any move 6 frames or slower (most moves..)
c. Basically, mix up c.lk -> throw and c.lk, cl.Hppoke frame trap
POST s.hk hit frame traps
-
s.hk hit, s.mk (shorter characters) or s.hk (tall characters): 3 frame gap between s.hk and s.mk/second s.hk. trades with jabs and beats long pokes. this is good because it has the longest range. if they are dp or similarly short ranged reversal happy after you poke them, this is a risky option because your foot will definitely get hit. however this is nice because it beats hadokens
-
s.hk hit, c.mp (can xx into scissor for more damage, but needed to be charging before s.hk): 4 frame gap, beats long pokes.
-
s.hk hit, c.mk (also can xx into scissor): 2 frame gap between s.hk and c.mk. beats jabs and long pokes. most leeway for accidentially late inputting the second move (c.mk in this case). if they like to dp or something after they get hit by pokes, this is your safest option because it has the shortest range but will counterhit pokes, however this will lose to hadokens
keep in mind c.mp does 80 dmg, s.mk and c.mk are tied at 70 dmg, and s.hk does 120 (so s.hk hit, s.hk is a pretty nice option against tall opponents)
hmmmm…
back to the other post,
i think if you can get deep enough, c.lp, cl.lp, c.mp, s.mk/s.hk is not bad, between cl.lp and c.mp on block is 3 frames, and between c.mp and s.mk/s.hk is another 3 frames, but by then you’re out of jabbing range so you’ll hit jabs and slower pokes if they do anything.
this can be good to mix it up between c.lp, cl.lp, 1 frame, c.mkxxscissor
the danger is between cl.lp and c.mp, because you will be w/in 3 frame jab range and if they can nail it, you’ll trade with their jab, or worse if you input your c.mp too late, you’ll get counterhit