M.bison USF4 , any Rumors of buff/nerf changes?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
141

Someone checked in the mod version if you can connect “point blank” CH st.HK > far.mp > PC/SK ? That woud be sick … I am pretty sure you will have to much push back … but it is a nice idea.

Can we just put togther a list of possible other buffs that would improve Bison (not break him) if we have to deal with the SK -1and Teleport nerf in USF4 … maybe it is not to late … and the only way I see to make Bison viable in USF4 is to give feedback.

Here are some comments and ideas:

Combos:

st.mp buff is really nice BUT again you will have a 1 frame link to maximize your damage output, which is not a big deal but in combination of all other important 1 frame links from Bison it is getting a bit boring. This links are all 1 f links:

cls.hp > st.lk > st.hk (two 1 f links)
cr.lk > st.lk (1 f link)
cls.lp > cr.mp (1 f link)
cr.lp > cr.mk (1 f link)
cr.mp > st.mk/hk (1 f link)

So the st.mp buff just adds another bunch of 1f links to Bison combos:
st.lk > st.mp (1 f link)
cr.mp > st.mp (1 f link)

Solution --> add +1 hit stun for st.lk … this would eliminate a bunch of 1 f links and would add another 1 f link into cr.mp … which would not really hurt him.

SK:

It is nice that they buff SK damage but why not front loading this damage to just increase a bit the FADC damage.

Solution
–> Just put the + 10 Damage on the first hit for mk/hk/EX SK

PC:

With the damage buff to SK psycho crusher has become more useless in combos and is now left alone for risky PC cross up set ups …

Solution -->
Light PC start up 11 frames and only -6 on block … now you can combo light PC out of cr.lk and you can use it in footsie battles and as armor breaker
Medium PC give it 250 stun … usefull as a combo ender when you need the stun or in cross up set ups to stun the opponent … actually I dont know what to do with mp PC …
Hard PC just add another +10 Damage
EX PC just make it 50+100 damage and 50+150 Stun … so you can use it for Hell attack juggles and also for PC cross up set ups

Teleport:

Just give forward teleports the 42 f recovery back … so you can still use it as an anti OS tool against DPs.

Skull Diver:

Just let him attack on the side he is left/right and give it 5 active frames … nothing more nothing less.

Devil Reverse:

Give the the EX vesion automatically the double hit follow up
EX followup … reduce the frames between the two hits (Red Focus will never the less kill this move)
Improve hit box so you can not avoid it with pokes like shotos cr.mk or that you can hit cross up with it.

Anti Air:

I actually dont know yet if the 10 f cr.hp is now vialbe … my feeling is that it needs 8f start up because it has two different hit boxes in the 4 active frames and therefore is still a very slow poke for AA purpose.

Thats it … ah … and bring light SK +0 on block back … ^^

142

This guy modded Bison according to the changelist and tests him out in training mode. The only thing I wouldn’t trust is the EX Devil’s Reverse because he didn’t understand what it meant.

Yeah, I think that was enough frames to make cr.HP good.

143

In comparison, Ken’s f+mk is going be -1, that’s literally lk scissors, he’s getting way too many buffs!

144

I can’t believe CAPCOM is actually doing this. Are they serious?

These changes cripple the character. Without that pressure he has nothing. Ok so the annoying neutral jump or forward jump shinanigans might be ended. But all people have to do now is just walk back on Bison endlessly and lame him out and he has NO way to beat them. Wow, thanks CAPCOM for ruining the character.

I also love how they left the moves which don’t work and frustrate us all to hell completely alone, like the skull diver and the hell attack. I could see a reason for the SK nerf if they buffed ALL his air moves, PC, and hell attack. That would make sense, but this is bullshit.

145

I thought about this, and yes, -1 on sk is certainly bad, but imo, that only comes to play when the opponent does a 3 frame normal after blocking a scissor kick.
If that’s the case, then maybe that’s why they changed st.mp. Maybe we can use it to whiff punish those quick, yet short ranged normals and still capitalizing by cancelling it into another sk.

146

No, S.MP has been changed to improve damage potential. You could already punish whiffs before.
The -1 also hurts post Scissors poking. If both launch a 6f attack, for example, Bison loses.

147

Of course, but for how much damage?

The risk/reward ratio in throwing out a normal after blocking a sk was very much in the opponent’s favor. Now, he will have to respect Bison, or he’ll eat a delayed st.mp -> sk. Now Bison is actually dangerous in that department. That’s probably why they thought it would be a good idea to make it -1 to balance it out. I still don’t think it is, but maybe there’s a reasoning behind it.

148

cr.mp is only 10dmg below s.mp and has almost the same range. For punishes, it’s almost the same. S.MP being a buff is simply because it’s 6f instead of 7.

149

I think the biggest advantage that we got from the st.mp buff is that we now have a bnb the works with every character on crossup and a chargeless combo that ends with hk.SK.
The damage increase (about 20-30 dmg extra on combos if they use st.MP and the SK dmg buff) helps also.

150

I think it’s more a matter of hurtboxes than just startup/range. St.mp may have small hurtbox on the lower part of Bison’s body, so maybe it will avoid certain attacks that cr.mp can’t (much like Ryu and Ken’s st.mp).

It’s all desperate speculation, I know, but maybe developers aren’t as clueless as we think they are.

151

Guys I had a bit of time with KingBlacktoof Bison Mod. The St.mp buff is huge in the damage department.
His meterless punish combos do scary damage now and with meter to FADC scissors, his punishes will hurt a lot.
If you blocked a shoryuken from Ryu you could do cr.Mp>st.Mp into SK/PC to get 282dmg/320stun meterless (it is 1 frame link combo)
if you have meter to spend you could do cr.Mp>st.Mp x.SK FADC cr.Lp>cl.Lp>st.Mp xSk/PC for 366dmg/455 stun.
Those two combos work on Ryu ,the only down side is that these combos are hard to pull off consistently because it has one frame link. (haven’t tried these combos on other characters but I believe it will work on most if not all of them).
I also tried this jump in combo j.Hp>cl.Hp xSK FADC cr.Lp>cl.LP>st.mp xSK/PC for 406dmg/675stun.
Bison deals damage T^T,

  • but the 1- L.SK is still heart breaking and very annoying for me , it is what define him. (also considering what other characters have)*
152

People keep thinking that cr.mp to st.mp is gonna be good and it might be…as a punish…assuming they don’t have to bars to fadc which they do most of the time (dp punish seems the most likely, everything else tends to have enough pushback to make that not work). Beyond that its about as likely as landing cr.mp to cr.mk (they seem to have about the same range requirements, not quite point blank but close enough. correct me if I am wrong), hard as hell except as a punish for a very unsafe move.

The other situation people seem to be celebrating is people getting hit by a cl.hp or a raw jump in to cl.hp into st.lk to st.mp. Also seems unlikely.

The one thing I find helpful is the fact Bison gets universal crossup combo on the likes of Balrog, Juri and Guy.

Ultimately this is till not enough to matter for Bison considering all the good stuff everyone else got. As it stands now Bison is not going to be any good I think.

153

how is the anti-air. is it still crap or does it work now? also to note for everyone. linking into standing mp is always 1 frame link except for cl. lp which is 2 frame, also far standing lp should not link. I think a way to fix this is to give an extra hit of stun on standing lk. that way big damage combo requires 1 frame link and smaller damage combo requires a 2 frame link.

hopefully all these changes are not set in stone. I believe that capcom is shooting for a release date of late April. why you ask? because SSF4 came out on April 27th. I expect USF4 to come out around the same time. I expect another round of changes before release. maybe we can get sk back to 0
(or to +1 Kappa)

154

I think some of you guys are undermining how good far s.MP being cancelable and faster really is. I’ve been dreaming of it on SF4 Bison along with far s.HP being cancelable too since touching SFxT Bison. 1 out of 2 normals requested being changed is better than none for sure!

Far s.MP being 6f and cancelable opens up a plethora of options for you

Far s.MP will be a good poke cancel. With LK Knee Press being nerfed to -1 on block, you probably do NOT want to throw out c.LK xx LK Knee Press back to back too often against characters that have 3f normals. Taking a step backward and trying to whiff punish people mashing right afterward will be just as fine too.

cr.MP into s.MP xx cancel traps

Counter hit close s.HP, s.MP xx psycho/knee press/super

c.LK, s.LK, s.MP xx psycho/knee press/super (optimized over c.LK, s.LK, c.MK xx psycho/knee press/super)

I’m not sure who else uses s.LK sometimes to punish people after crossing under people jumping over you, but s.LK, s.LK. s.LK, s.MP xx knee press/psycho is possibly doable now

Jump in, c.LP, s.LK, c.MP xx HK Knee Press (optimized over c.LP, s.LK, c.MK xx HK Knee Press), more damage via s.MP added and HK Knee Press damage going up and rivaling HP Psycho Crusher damage ender for the wall carry now.

Having this being the same speed as s.MK and s.HK places it up in their class as one of the better pokes/tools Bison will probably need to employ for USF4 for now unless they roll this change away.

s.MP vs s.MK/s.HK in “that” range
PROS:
cancelable and possibly linkable poke
anti-airing and canceling it into LP or MP psycho crusher will probably get some ambiguous crossups going
more damage than s.MK
whiff punishing and canceling into Knee Press over incoming crouching attacks
CONS:
shorter range than s.MK and s.HK
less damage than s.HK
will counter hit less damage for certain range as an anti-air than s.HK

There, that’s all I can think of right now off the top of my head.

Bring on USF4. I am slowly getting over -1 LK Knee Press on block but the wound is still fresh.

155

I also think some people are trying to oversell the st.mp buff. Yeah its a good and useful buff and the only good one Bison got. There lies the problem when you take a look at what the likes of Rog, Ken, Vega, Makoto and others ended up getting you realize that even with that buff Bison is going to drop down even further.

Thats what I am concerned about, everyone seems to have gotten buffed past him.

On another note how are you supposed to use cr.mp to st.mp as a trap? At the ranges you’d have to be to link that from what I could tell from training mode now…I can’t see it being used outside of a straight punish situation.

156

Get in close and use:
Cr.MP into S.MP as 1f link or 4f CH link 170 damage/190 damage
Close MK into S.MP as 3f CH link 202 damage
Close HP into S.MP as 2f CH link 215 damage

157

What exactly is stopping them just hitting you out of the startup of those moves, especially since you have to be so very close to use any of that? Thats where I am having a hard time “get in close” isn’t a very good answer considering you are hoping to hit or counterhit with some slower moves at point blank ranges.

158

I don’t know what we are discussing, I guess. You’re discussing a way to get in now? Anyway, once you get in, somehow, you can use these as his most damaging links and frametraps now.

159

From what people have been saying its sounding like get in close and try and use cr.mp or other slower moves raw at point blank is what everyone has been getting excited about since you can link to st.mp now, or at least that is how it is reading. Frame trapping into it I guess I could see, st.lk would be good for it. Using it as a meaty could work as well. But raw? I can’t see that working outside a punish situation.

In short I was questioning its use as any sort of trap from inside jab range considering its speed. I can’t help but think you’d have to frame trap off something else at close range like that. I am also wondering what kind of trap would actually work as far as normal frame trap into cr.mp to st.mp considering cr.mp’s pushback on hit (keep thinking that the pushback cr.mp and st.lk combined might push them too far back at that point to get st.mp to hit). So many things I would just have to see myself.

160

I know this is not the best place to ask if these are fair (things could get really biased in a Bison forum), but what do you think about these suggestions as Bison feedback for loketest?

1 - Decrease Close MP’s startup by 2f and recovery 1f - walk in close mp->cr.lk as a faster frametrap
2 - Increase Psycho LP,MP,HP stun by 50 to compensate the fact that Bison gets away from his purpose (get closer to enemy)
3 - 1 extra invulnerable frame on EX Psycho to avoid trades and being grabbed out of.
4 - Faster headpress (44->41f total) + Some proximity block. Compensate with 160 EX Headpress damage
5 - Improve Skull Diver hitbox (can’t be low profiled) + Recovery 6f + Invulnerability to EX (SFxT) + Reduce damage to 80 and 120 (EX) to compensate
6 - Devil Reverse followup 6f ground recovery + fall a bit faster + Invulnerability to EX (SFxT). Compensate with zero meter and damage reduction to 80 and 120 (EX)
7 - 1st frame of Headpress and Devil = grounded
8 - Reduce U2 startup by 4f

This, of course, keeping every USF4 change so far…including scissors -1.