M.bison USF4 , any Rumors of buff/nerf changes?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1241

Yeah but Bison has been crap since the end up Vanilla. They started to see his flaws by the end. It was U2 that boosted him up in the eyes of many. The moment it became a charge he was basically Vanilla with less damage and some slightly better tools, only to be nerfed further in AE with only minor buffs that didn’t really make much difference.

Now they have taken more than they have given. Like I said, his ONLY saving grace now is that he isn’t free from the air.

The question is, is it enough simply to not be abused for free from the air anymore?

I don’t know. I think I know what they are going for. They think that with RFA and DWU and -5 on FADC DP’s that he will simply be allot stronger based on footsies alone, but then I ask, why nerf his SK? I think though he will in the end be mid tier at best because his damage output was nerfed. That extra 20 damage on top of the 10 for the SK was serious and by taking it away they haven’t addressed the problem.

Edit:

look at this guys Look at 7:30. is that an ultra punish after the sk or a read?

This is interesting

Notice the Gief matchup

1242

Nearly all brain dead pressure tools/specials are getting nerfed … and -1 is not a lot of time … so basically the chars that are able to punish SK point blank are Grapplers + Chun li + Ryu ? Well … I would anyway avoid picking Bison against Chun + Grapplers … Ryu will suffer enough from the AA buffs and new EX SK … and this MU was already even or slightly in Bisons favor.

I also agree that if you buff HS + Skull Diver you would than have to nerf something else a bit to compensate the additional damage you get from it … don’t know … a more reliable SD would be great but wasn’t the SD indirectly buffed with the st.mp buff ? As far as I remember it was very very hard to connect cr.mp > cr.mk x special after a regular SD on hit … now you should be able to always get the full combo into special when you hit a SD … and we should not forget that if SD would be very reliable and tricky to block … EX SD > cr.mp > st.mp x special … would be tons of damage and stun … especially if the HS also hits … o.O

Problem is that HS + SD can easily become too stronk !!! Maybe the st.mp buff and the faster HS makes the utility of HS + SD a bit better.

1243

Autocorrect skull diver doesn’t mean a guaranteed mixup… Let’s see. What beats it? Low profile moves (shoto cr. mk), focus attack, dash under, dash away, several timed reversals, etc. Pretty much any thinking player can find a good counter for auto correct skull diver.

Also, did they buff the hitbox on AA cr. fp? I heavily question how useful it’ll be TBH. If you watch the opponent’s feet, you have plenty of time to AA the opponent, but it still wasn’t that useful before. It got beat out alot before and it’s not because it was 12 frames.

1244

Only grapplers at very close range

1245

Yeah “mindgame” would be the more appropriate term. SD should be designed so that it would get beaten by some moves, but you also have the option to beat those at the cost of wasting the mixup opportunity.

Something like Rolento’s pogo stick mixup, where the opponent can avoid the crossup with an air move but if Rolento predicts it he can beat it with an early air move as well, though wasting the mixup opportunity.

My point still stands though. I know I’m playing devil’s advocate, but I just don’t think Capcom took that mixup away just for the sake of saying fuck you to the fans. They have no reason to do it, it’s too counterproductive.

I’m 500% sure that mixup was there in one of the early builds of SF4. If they went with the current design, it’s most likely because they found something that didn’t work. Hell, even a single matchup might have been the reason why they removed it, maybe there was that one character that just didn’t have an answer.

1246

We will never know why there are no changes to SD … there would be plenty of ways to make it better or more usefull … just all the possibilities for EX SD … like better/bigger hitbox … more active frames … let it fall faster … give it armor … or whatever would improve its utility.

We will never know … o.O

1247

Considering how terrible headstomp’s tracking has been, I wouldn’t be surprised if they never noticed/cared about skull diver.

1248

I don’t think HS has bad tracking, it’s just not meant to be used randomly. As I said, there are ways to force the opponent to block it almost 100% guaranteed, while also beating out reversals and backdashes.

1249

And I’m supposed to be concerned about that why?

Seriously, the -1 nerf to LK Scissors was a bit overblown, because in the grand scheme of things it means nothing. As history has shown, that move could be much more negative on block and it would still be fine, just not mindless to use.

However, the problem with the -1 nerf, and this is the reason I complained too, is because they nerfed one of Bison’s 3 good moves and replaced it with nothing. At least initially. He got some better buffs after the first wave of changes with the increased projectile invincibility on EX Scissors and the added juggle ability of Hell Attack/Psycho Crusher (or whatever form it’s in now), but while the lauded s.MP buff was nice, it was far from what was needed. And that was before they reduced the damage on it by 20. They were even stingy as hell with the Scissors Kick damage buff, putting it on the second hit and not the first, since apparently having 10 more damage on FADC combos was too much or something.

So overall, Bison is (at least on paper) marginally better, with his weaknesses slightly addressed. Though frankly, I cared little about his matchups and was always more concerned with how bland he is. That’s why I have constantly said FIX HIS MOVES FIRST, then see about any necessary buffs/nerfs. They have yet to fix anything.

Concerning “re-working animations”, I’m pretty sure an animation to turn around in mid-air during Head Press is something that could be done in 10 minutes. It’s not as though they would need to do anything new. I’m sure it took more work to copy and edit all the moves to make Decapre’s “new” moves.

EDIT:

Okay, this is weird: I posted this yesterday, but it didn’t go through even after I clicked “Post Comment”; it remains in my preview window. This is the second time this has happened.

Duaie:

That would have to be either an internal build or maybe one of the early arcade betas. I played SFIV arcade a week after it was released and this was still an issue then. I’m pretty sure it has always been thus, and again, I’m pretty sure its because “no one at Capcom plays Bison”. Or to be more accurate, Capcom (and/or JPN fans - contrary to what people may think, Capcom doesn’t actually take on fan input, with the possible exception of JPN players; they listen to their own internal testers, and that’s about it) think he’s “fine” with his current playstyle and see no need to change him.

The changes to Seth ha been far more drastic than anything that could be introduced by auto correct Skull Diver.

1250

By that I meant his other moves, not just SD. Re-working the character means adjusting the hitboxes and all, but if they don’t match with the visuals at all, you gotta re-do the animations.

Yeah by early builds I meant internal builds, or maybe even in the prototype version of the game, not the ones open to the public.

Anyway, trust me, I understand what you’re saying. From a pure design standpoint, I agree he is dull. I know because I actually dropped Bison because of that, and since I’m a masochist idiot, I went with Fei Long.

But I was talking about his viability as a character, not his design. And if you only consider that, Bison actually received buffs (and pretty good ones as well), which is more than what we could expect given how they treated other characters (well, not everyone coughYuncough)

We can discuss all day and night about how they could have designed Bison better, but since this is a thread about Ultra and its relative changes, that would be a bit off topic.

1251

Does anyone know if the faster start up on HS will enable HS meaty cross ups on wake up for more chars beside Blanke and Honda ? Or is it more a hurtbox thing ?

Pretty sure EX HS will become better against DPs and as an AA in general … 2 frames faster start up means 2 frames faster active 180 Damage Hitboxes … I just hope that this will not ruin the EX PC > HS set ups in the corner … o.O … one of the better corner set ups for Bison imho …

1252

I think we need to see Bison’s “balancing” in a wider range, because he is not the only character that was changed, for better or for worse, and to really see if Bison is going to be good or whack is to see how his match-ups changed.

Also I agree that he is dull and two dimensional in this SF, but I certainly can live with that and enjoy him

Spoiler

My favorite Bison is from EX2+

1253

I don’t think they have buffed the EX.HS start up, only regular HS as far as I know.

1254

Bison is one diminutional. This is much is true.

Buffing skull diver so it can be an actual mixup, meaning he can still be punished, and visa vera, but it depends on who guesses right is beyond fair.

Like I said before, with DWU and current non-hard knockdown timings the blocked HS is avoidable. The non-hard knockdown is guaranteed avoidable, in which case they suffer chip from crusher, and the DWU after a throw would be VERY risky for Bison so it is beyond fair.

It just means that bison will have the option to continue his pressure tactics after a knockdown. And characters like Chun can still punish with EX legs. So let’s not act like this would be SO strong that an additional nerf would be needed to compensate.

IF as Combofiend claims the move is now, the would were to be “a great move” then Bison would be fine. Combofiend, when I talked to him was largely ignorant about the move. I don’t think you guys understand. He actually believed the move worked!

1255

He is ignorant on the move because it is so bad no one uses it…

1256

MEWEH

HUAAAA
HUAAA
HUAAA
MEWEH

MUHAHAHAHA

The only thing I like about Bison atm.

1257

EX HS didnt receive the startup buff

1258

Wow … true … you are right … facepalm … well … anyway

1259

Bison juggle. Although, you can do it in AE2012, I’ve done it a few times. The 3 j.mp of course.

1260

yep, but never in a real match. Scaling becomes too high