I’d rock Super Bison, and Ultra on anyone with a fireball.
Thank god edition select is nothing more than an offline novelty mode. No Bison comes close to matching vanilla Sagat.
lol this has got to be the most truthful statement I have heard!
knowing what i know now, i think i’d rape almost any vanilla sagat with vanilla bison. especially the frauds that used sagat
Yeah I would agree. The higher damage is all you need. Then again Sagat in vanilla does have that ridiculous damage.
You would beat the people who don’t know what they are doing much like I did (I still have pictures of the ragequits) however you would lose badly to one that had even a slight clue
Sadly through trollono is thinking about allowing edition select online from what Krone is saying. Bah
I did in Vanilla. That’s why I picked up Bison. Every Ryu/Sagat online was a fraud.
Even so Sagat was kinda broken in Vanilla … due to st.lk / safe TKs and his damage … it is noobish to say that Sagat is easy to play … dont know if you guys have played Sagat for a while but he got tons of very hard to play MUs and he is miles away from a flow chart char !!! Never the less Vanilla MUs and balance is a different story …
Lol this. I don’t ever remember losing to an online Sagat.
i did not play Bison from Vanilla so can someone pls explain to me what he got at this time, comparing to AE 2012
SF4 Bison is hard use against SF4 Sagat. You need to make very great reads or get demolished. Don’t forget about the j.MP people’s elbow that is extremely hard to anti air, safe Tiger Knee setups at close range, and just massive overall damage off f.HK and DP conversions into ultra/FADC ultra.
As Suparnovax said, Sagat did way more damage across the board (Ultra did 563 raw, Tiger Uppercut, Tiger Knee, Tiger Shots, normals), his Tiger Knees where easier to space safe. His J.MP had loads of active frames and it was very high priority. In addition to this is his fireballs had less recovery and he had 50 more health too.
Bison did more damage too in vanilla but it Sagat did even more, Bison also had wonky EX.PC that did not consistently go through fireballs, and no cross up PC and no FADC slide. His throws did less damage too.
What Bison did have was better LK scissor kick loops. He could do 2 c.lkxx lk.sk in the corner before being used out or range. Ex.Stomp did 200 damage and 250 on counterhit.
Only vanilla Akuma can match vanilla Sagat, and AE Yun and Yang possible.
Vanilla Viper and Dhalsim where close to going even with Vanilla Sagat as well. Vanilla Ryu wasn’t too far off either.
As I said no Bison comes come to challenging vanilla Sagat. But vanilla Bison would probably be our best option against AE Yun, just for the added damage.
Ultra Bison will be our best bet against any Guile (lol vanilla Guile and his normal charge booms, no Guile player will use vanilla Guile he was ass).
Don’t think any Bison is going beat vanilla Zangief, but vanilla Bison our best option again.
Ditto against any version of Honda.
Hell I think vanilla Bison would be the go to choice in most match ups except Guile.
Bison would still have his bad match ups from vanilla but the Guile match up should be easier.
Super Bison was incredible overated because of non charge U2, but I’ll take 120 damage roundhouse any day.
If anyone is interested, here is the complete list of change logs for all versions of Bison.
Super
Ultra 1 damage reduced by 48, from 540 (5x60240) to 492 (4x4860240).
LK.SK damage reduced by 10, from 100 (6040) to 90 (6030), chip damage reduced from 25 (1510) to 22(15*7)
S.HK damage reduced by 20, from 120 to 100.
S.HP damage reduced by 10, from 130 to 120.
CL.HP damage reduced by 20, from 120 to 100.
C.HK damage reduced by 10, from 110 to 100.
C.MK damage reduced by 5, from 70 to 65.
EX.Head Press damage reduced by 20 from 200 to 180.
Forward & Neutral throw damage increased by 10 from 130 to 140.
Back throw damage increased by 10 from 130 to 140.
LP. Pyscho Crusher damage increased by 10 to 120 from 110. Chip reduced from 56 (2828) to 36 ( 1818)
MP. Pyscho Crusher damage increased by 10 to 130 from 120. Chip reduced from 60 (3030) to 36 ( 1818)
HP. Pyscho Crusher damage increased by 10 to 140 from 130. Chip reduced from 64 (3232) to 36 ( 1818)
EX. Pyscho Crusher damage increased by 10 to 150 (7575) from 140 (7070). Chip increased from 34 (1717) to 36 ( 1818)
All normal Pyscho Crusher had a second hitbox added that hits only on cross up, that does 100 damage.
Normal Pyscho Crushers where made safer on block at close range.
Ex.Pyscho Crusher can cross up for 75 damage.
Ex.Pyscho Crusher projectile invincibility on front hurtbox now adjusted to last full length of active frames.
Pyscho Punisher U2 added, 2xQCF +3P command. 420 damage.
C.HK now focus and super cancelable.
Focus 2: Startup frames changed from 18+12 to 17+13.
MP Psycho Crusher: Active frames changed from 1413 to 1215.
HP Psycho Crusher: Active frames changed from 1716 to 1221.
Headstomp follow-up: Startup frames changed from 17+7 to 35+7.
EX Headstomp follow-up: Startup frames changed from 17+7 to 35+7.
LK Super: Startup frames changed from 1+5 to 1+6.
HK Super: Startup frames changed from 1+15 to 1+16.
Arcade Edition
LK Scissor Kick pushes you further from your opponent on block.
LK, MK, and HK Scissor Kicks do 50+50 (100 total) stun, down from 100+50 (150 total).
Standing HK now does 80 damage on the far hitbox, and 110 damage on the close hitbox.
Crouching LK hurtbox has been extended forward.
Super is projectile invincible during its active frames.
Ultra 2 is now a charge motion but more damaging (increased to 450). Is more vulnerable on block (-23 in AE vs -16 in Super).
2012
Scissor Kick
Changed light/medium/heavy stun from 50 + 50 (100 total) to 100 + 50 (150 total). Lengthened hit stun by 1F on first hit for all versions, giving the attacker a possible +5F advantage when completing the fastest possible Double Knee Press→EX Focus→Dash.
Near Standing Heavy Kick
Far Standing Heavy Kick Changed shallow hit damage from 80 to 90.
Ultra
Stand middle punch: Starts up faster (8F->6F)
Stand middle punch: Now special, super, ex focus attack cancellable
Crouching heavy punch: Starts up faster (12F->10F)
Hell Attack: Follow up attacks now combo once this connects
Bison Teleport: Recovery increased (42F->47F)
Light Knee Press: Disadvantage on block increased (0F->-1F)
Light Knee Press: Damage increased (6030->6040) (chip 22 -> 25)
Medium Knee Press: Damage increased (6050->6060) chip now 30)
Heavy Knee Press: Damage increased (7060->7070) (chip now 35)
EX Knee Press: Damage increased (7070->7080) (chip now 37)
EX Knee Press: Projectile invincibility extended (1F~12F->1F~19F)
Head Press: Starts up faster (22F->20F)
EX Devil’s Reverse: Comes down from the sky faster
Light/Medium/Heavy Psycho Crusher: Will hit opponents who are in a float state
EX Psycho Crusher: Damage reduced (7575->7560) (chip now 33 from 36)
Normal Pyscho Crusher now hit once on block for 18 damage.
Normal Pyscho Crushers less safe on block (non cross up) but safer from reversals.
Psycho Punisher: Damage reduced (450->420)
Psycho Punisher: Charge time reduced (55F->40F)
You forgot to mention the S.HK change in terms of hotbox/hurtbox from vanilla to super.
That was never changed.
Even AE Yun would have a hard time against vanilla sagat. We’re talking one misread and you’ve got 400+ damage against you. The fools talking about edition select being available online would do well to remember the bad old days. Edition select in tourneys would be laughable with those tools available.
We’ve come a long way.
… That Vanilla chip damage was worthy of being that of a Psycho Crusher. too bad it is only 18 in ultra ):
Yeah, I still wouldn’t fear Vanilla Sagat, unless the player is actually good.
Rose unblockable Ultra 1 ftw.