Yeah, I’m just like “I could have done this if it was Ultra”. He’s not so dependant on scissors now, that’s what people are forgetting. You can easily push people into the corner with less scissors, then that’s when the game starts. Cr.hp meant I could turtle some characters a lot easier too.
@ daaadom,
for one my arguments are NOT BASED on the idea that Bison needs a safe pressure game. What I said generally is that he needs more damage options, and that I don’t think the current buffs are going to fix him. Hate to say it, but I have been right before. You can find me saying the same Bison mantra game after game. Even while others were cheering Bison in Super, I was the guy saying “yeah but this U2 is covering up his real problems.” Do you understand that from a strategic perspective, you can buff a character but have them still suck? That’s because sometimes when you don’t address the underlying cause, you just temporarily mask the problem. When the hype wares off, reality begins to creep in.
Call me a skeptic, but I’m not going to believe any of this until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to the point of absurdity.
Now let’s suppose you guys are right and he is PERFECTLY balanced, or, he is a HIGH tier character. Cause if he turns out to be mid or low tier again, I will be very disappointed, and its time for them to revert the nerfs. Let’s suppose that’s correct.
He’s going to be lame to no end. I never wanted them to give him a god damn AA. Bison is about offense, not lameness. wtf? Shame to all you guys who requested this. I for one was against it and for them buffing hell attack, or something. Hell fix the PC, and his other moves…make him fun. This is what you guys want?
I been playing Bison since ST back in the 90’s. I shouldn’t have to switch characters because my character get’s lamed out. Its the fault of all the people who requested this nonsense.
-
I don’t care if he’s a high tier character, I care about him being viable. There will always be low tier characters, because as a matter of fact some characters are gonna be stronger than others by design. But even if Bison will end up being bottom tier, at least he’s still gonna be a threat, and that’s what I care about.
-
Having an AA does not make a character lame. Dudley, Fei, CAMMY, Rufus, and many, many others have a good AA and are still considered offensive characters. Like I said, not having an AA is just an hindrance and has nothing to do with the character archetype. Nobody should be able to jump at you that easily, offensive character or not.
-
U2 was not the reason why Bison was considered strong in super. The metagame was completely different, and people thought defensive characters with a solid neutral and ground game had the advantage. It was the period when people still complained about reversals being too strong, and that offensive play was impossible because of that.
Chun, Guile, Honda, Bison, were all top tier. Then players discovered offensive play, and found out that it was so much more effective than footsies and lame gameplay. All these characters dropped at the bottom of the tier list, and the rest is history.
-
We still don’t know if the metagame will return back to super now that all these vortex and offensive characters are nerfed, but you have to admit it’s a possibility. Bison has very strong qualities, you just don’t see them because the metagame doesn’t favour them. As I said some time ago in the other thread, it’s like developing arm muscles when you are a soccer player: as long as you play soccer, nobody is gonna notice how strong you are.
-
As I said a bajilion times… how would fixing his useless moves also fix his so-called “fundamental issues”? I still don’t understand, maybe I’m stupid. If not having an AA at all is not a fundamental issue, I don’t know what is.
-
Bison is a lame character, he has never been about offence in the same fashion as Cammy. He was about pressure, and forcing the opponent to attack and then punishing him. He has passive mixups instead of active mixups like Rufus, Cammy or Abel, in that he relies on the opponent’s actions to do damage instead of actually “opening him up”. That’s what “lame” means. If you don’t like it, as daaadom said, just drop the damn character and use someone else more in line with your tastes. There’s nothing wrong with that.
-
Again, I’m not here to say Bison is gonna be top, or even high tier. However, saying he’s gonna suck without even having played the game long enough to grasp how the metagame will evolve is nonsensical.
I understand your point … and it is fair enough … but reverting the nerfs would not change anything and I dont believe that there is a way to change this version of Bison into a version that would fit into your picture of Bison as you think he should be.
About the AA … it is not like that Bison now got a guile like cr.hp … it is just a bit more usefull and it is not godlike … by far not … and it is a good thing to improve his AA game a bit … having no reliable AA in SF is simple bad … dealing with random jump ins and eating a trade or clean hit is dumb.
Giving a char such a good offense to justify no reliable AA buttons does not work … imho
But … nvm … satisfy everybody will be impossible … I am looking forward to the new Bison …
We wont ever have ST Bison back, I haven’t had that dream in a long time.
He looks fine in Ultra will probably have the same gameplan just a few more combos. Bison is lame in SF4 we just have to except that at this point.
Poison looks fucking godlike in that location test footage. Poison has me real excited for Ultra can’t wait.
No it doesn’t make him lame by itself, my statement was more wholistic than that.
I agree with your assessment, but mine was based on their’s. I’m saying Bison was considered top tier because of U2, not that I thought he was high tier in my own opinion. If you look back to posts of mine from that time, you will see as much.
Point taken, I just am not so sure the metagame will develop in that way.
Well…I mean fix his offense, thus decreasing the need for defense. As it has been remared many times, the fear in buffing Bison’s defense is that he might be broken. Yet we all acknowledge that presently he is flawed. I am saying it makes more sense and goes with the flow of the character to increase his offense instead of his defense.
No he has never been like Cammy, but he has never had this many moves that don’t work either…has he?
That’s a fair statement, but call it skepticism based on past analysis with respect to the predicted outcomes. There is a difference between dogmatism and skepticism.
Perhaps, but I don’t think its really that bad. I think simply buffing his moves that don’t work, which is nearly all of them would do the trick.
True, its not like Guiles, but everyone has been arguing here (those who are pro current Ultra Bison) that it is sufficient for what Bison needs. Now Bison needs an AA in light of his current offense. I’m saying if he had a better offense, than he wouldn’t need a better defense, thus he wouldn’t be as lame.
Why does it not work? It has worked in the past, why not now?
Well … my personal opinion is … that the whole meta game and the system does simple dont allow that a character can only rely on offense and does not have a way to AA. If that would be possible this characters offense should be so overhelming that he would be just to strong in some MUs.
SF4 is a game that should not be too combo heavy, based on footsie and fundamentals. It should reward smart play. So USF4s main problem will be to find the balance between “Setupfighter4” and “Downbackfighter4” OR in other words between a offensive/defensive oriented game.
One thing I really like about SF4 is the fact that you take a huge risk if you careless jump at someone … and Bison is one of just a few characters (e.g. chun li) where you dont have too much to care that you will eat an AA. This simple feels wrong and is totaly anoying.
His f… cr.HP looks like a f… solid AA … It should be atleast a decent AA … imho
I think Bison will be alright against the cast, but his game style won’t satisfy me. He seems to lack personality gameplay wise.
@ daaadom3,
I think there could be the possibility for some match-ups, if Bison was balanced how I think he should be. I am not sure if this should be a problem though. It could just be an indication of other imbalances in the game itself, which would require that those characters, and subsequently others need adjustments.
Bison is fun in Ultra, just based on the fact you can actually do meterless combos. Cr.lk into scissors is not a combo!
If Chun Li doesn’t change too much, I suggest her if you don’t wanna play him. I’d say Vega also, but who are we kidding? He will get nerfed before release.
Jesus, just look at this fireball punish at almost full screen at 1:06:25 on the stream archieve
Hope this will stay since it’s necessary against Guile
again, I shouldn’t have to switch my character cause Capcom is lame. I been playing Bison since ST in the 90’s, I’m not going to switch now. But I will make my opinion known to Capcom, which is why I am probably the ONLY guy on this forum who consistently throughout the years, even since Vanilla, has been preaching about Bison to Capcom. I deserve an award.
Actually bro, Guile recovers to quick, so know it wont be helpful against Guile at all.
Well we may not be able to punish him but at least we can take a risky guess. Not the greatest of the options but it’s better than what we have now: nothing.
I can understand this … I also always liked Bison as a character … because I want to play a character that fits my playstyle but also very important is look and background. I was also sending emails and all that stuff … spoke with Dawg @ dreamhack and and and … never got any response from the guys from Capcom … I just only hope that atleast someone has read my countless mails and suggestions.
I am currently fine with the Bisons changes … the only thing I really really want to have is a better Skull Diver … with a left/right mix up and that it is harder to low-profile it … they can decrease the damage to 100 … but it would be sooooooooo awesome to have a real mix-up with SD !!!
@ daaadom3,
YES I want a better skull diver too!! I would like a better PC too, but the PC at last has some use against some characters, sometimes, whereas skull diver just blows all around.
What we need to have more of in the Bison community, as it pertains to making our opinions known to Capcom, is solidarity. If the Cammy people, like Aluine can get all sorts of crap because they complain all day long on the forums, why can’t we?
Actually I would say that there was a pretty solid presence of Bison feedback in the capcom forum and personally I tried contacting Capcom in several ways … including feedback form …
So … I am now a bit lazy to continue to write mails or post stuff … I think all you can do is going to a loc test and give direct feedback … unfortunately there is no loc test close to me … and I dont have the time to travel to a one of the loc tests in europe.
The character doesn’t suck.
/topic
on the subject of Alioune here were his recommended changes for Bison. Remember this guy plays Cammy, and played sagat in vanilla. I would love nothing more than in season 3 of ESGN fight night to have Gagapa on the show and for him to 7-0 Alioune.
M. Bison suggestions from Alioune
Normals
cl mp : startup reduced 7 > 4 , advantage on hit +2 >+4,less pushblack (that would give him a real close range frame trap game without having to use his charge and more combo possibilities)
cl lp : startup 6-5
far mp : special cancelable ,damage reduction 90 > 80
far hk : increase dhurtbox , -1 > -5 block advantage
jump hp : increased hurtbox (easier to antiair)
jump hk : reduced hitbox (he already has jump mk for the crossup purpose)
cr hk : not fadc’able in the last active frames
specials:
knee press lk : 0 on block > -3 on block , increased pushback ,dmg 6030 > 5030.
devil reverse :airborne frame 3
teleport:5 frames more recovery, kkk goes the same distance as ppp
skull driver : forward movement option removed (neutral and back still possible)
ex moves :
ex psycho crusher :strike Invulnerability frames 1~12 > 5~12 (ex knee press already serves that purpose)
Alioune is such a moron. He basically just wants to nerf the crap has has trouble with, without looking at the big picture.
See and that’s my point, that is exactly the kind of people we DON’T want helping to nerf our character. I was there for his stupid crap in the Unity forum.
Sad thing is, half of what he wanted for the teleport came true!
Tune in at 1;21:00 for some USF4 Gagapa Bison. Gagapa didn’t play like his usual self and he didn’t incorporate Bison changes on his gameplay.
if you wanna see how heartbreaking the teleport nerf is tune in at 1:28:04.
It is just like EMP-Hiro said, “Bison has no teleport now”.
at 1:29:05 and 1:31:16, the rumored nerf on PC is confirmed now, PC will only hit once. Oh well, might be ok ,as long as we can get full chip and damage out of cross-up Psycho otherwise I don’t see the point on nerfing a weak move.