the footsie war is equal but chun li converts into more damage off her pokes so she gets the edge there
her fireball is good harassment against bison
she can aa bison pretty decently and can run away pretty decently too
BUT
bison can run away from HER all day
bison can eventually corner chun and do lots of damage/pressure that way
i think it’s bison favour tbh. play it super lame while you have the lead or just walk chun to the corner when you don’t have the lead. she can’t escape it. dont give her the chance to convert her pokes into damage (and tbh it’s not that much extra damage). build the temperament and the MU will be one of the easier ones
Looking at the Bison footage on from the WonderPark stream, I’m starting to agree. -1 together with the extra pushback on blocked short Knee Press to me seems like it will have a positive effect on Bison’s meta. Bison is at a disadvantage so opponents are more likely to push buttons but he’s at a far enough range that he can still counter them. And against grapplers he’s more likely to be out of range of grabs.
Cr.HP IS useful.
St.MP IS useful.
Damage buffs are useful.
J.Mp x2 into PC without spending meter? Yes please.
Damage buffs? Yes please.
EX scissors full screen to punish fireballs? Yes please.
LOL they can keep their -1 nerf, it’s hardly noticeable. I was pushing people in the corner faster than ever. Fireball characters weren’t even a threat, they dp me, cool, I’ll just sit back with 1 meter and wait for you to do something… You can’t throw a fireball.
Teleport still has it’s uses and I hardly found myself needing to use it.
Bison is definitely much better in this version, easily one of the better characters. However, the game could change between now and release. The only thing I got stuffed with a few times was red focus, and then again it wasn’t that major, just mix it in. Don’t go full retard with cr.lk xx scissors non stop. Cancel something into teleport = You wasted 2 bars. Unfortunately there were no Guile players, so I can’t really give info on that. I played Guile myself vs Bison but the players weren’t that experienced.
Also throwing in my hate for Hugo as a character, big ugly bastard! He’s a dummy for Ken/Bison. Of course you can’t master a character over 3 days, but he just seems out of place (GOOD!).
Now when I go home, I look at AE and say “Fuck this game”.
After checking out the recent UK location test, I can actually say I’m excited to play the new Bison.
He has so much more flexibility with that buffed cr. fierce, and -1 on scissor kicks didn’t seem to pose a problem AT ALL.
Pressure was still effective, and he looks so much more fun to use.
I fully understand Combofiend’s vision now. All it took was a good demonstration.
I saw the footage as well from the stream, and I agree with you 100%.
Ex-devil looked faster
cr. HP although not perfect was much better
more damage.
ex-scissors are now godlike. In theory if Bison has full super he can use ex-scissors>>> ex-RFA >>ultra. So if you can catch Guile with a sonic boom then you can really make him pay. Better than trying to catch a sonic boom with Ultra 2.
Then you add in DP FADC being -5 on block.
Don’t want to say this too loud but, Bison seems like he has everything he needs to win. I don’t see very many bison players online. I think most people have dropped him. Hope this does not create an online Bison army in Ultra
Yes. Now I’m back in AE mode, I don’t wanna play. Can’t quite remember the damage on hell attack into pc, but it was good damage. PC was 1 hit, and cr.lp isn’t 3 frames.
EDIT: Damn, that added pushback on scissor is gonna take some getting used to, but I really like what I’m seeing. It might just be the stage, but he looks a lot more like his xTekken version, which is definitely a good thing.
Yeah, I’m having this issue, too. I don’t want to play AE because it just feels so bad compared to new Bison.
So funny … nearly everybody was complaining like hell about how bad Bison is and that he is now useless with the SK nerf … and … bla bla bla … now … after the first “more or less” better footage … every body --> Ohhhhhhhhhhh … wow … Bison is going to be very good … good job Capcom … facepalm … Xp … but nvm … thanks for the info jebop!
Where exactly was the info about SK having mor pushback !? Not seen this in any changelog ???
Also what I am curious about is the damage for PC cross ups and also if a blocked HP PC is still “more or less” safe. In other words … is there a signifant change in Bison PC cross up game !?
For starters we didn’t see what will happen after a lk SK.
from the way that video looked, Bison is just going to get abused based on that -1 frame by many characters with jab or other normals who’s hit boxes will snuff a would be s.hk startup or w/e. It just means that any time Bison throws an SK, he is going to get punished in the sense that now he has to contend with pressure. This was already the case before the nerf, now it is going to be REALLY noticeable.
Indeed they can’t just jump at him for free, but that has not been his major issues. that video showed me NOTING of his pressure game. BOTH characters were doing noting after Bison SK’d but sit there and do nothing. That’s not pressure, that’s turtaling.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but with Ultra II being a 40F charge, is safe jump forward or neutral - option select Ultra II theoretically possible?
I can’t remember or find Bison’s actual jump frame data, but I remember it being pretty high, like over 30 frames. All I remember for sure is that there are 4 pre-jump frames, and 4 landing frames if a normal move is pressed in the air. It would probably be extremely tight if it is possible at all.
EDIT:
I actually found that Bison’s jump is 44F including pre-jump, so there’s a few frames leeway for this to be possible it seems. Anything with 5F startup could be option selected with Ultra II if I’m thinking about this right. Pretty huge at the highest level I think.
…and that’s why they buffed st.mp: to whiff punish those jabs/normals.
That was a gigantic issue, how can you not see that.
Bison is definitely gonna play differently, that’s for sure, and we’ll probably have to re-learn our options after a blocked scissor, but that’s for the better I think. We’ll just have to see, I’m not gonna say he’s gonna be good or bad, because we still don’t know how ALL changes (not only Bison’s) will add up, and how the new metagame will evolve.
here is how I see Bison now. Yes he can be abused from the air. But that is more of a secondary problem, not the primary deficiencies of the character. His main problems stem from lack of damage output/lack of options. These are linked. He has no way to safely deal damage, where as basically every other character has opportunities that are created by Bison’s assault, that give them options to deal more damage than he does. This is again, an inevitable consequence of his pressure.
However, this is not necessarily a bad thing, that his pressure itself is weak. If he had other follow up tools and setups to deal the heavy damage he would be good. The drawback is his poor defense (lack of AA and requirement to use EX just to get away).
NOW…his pressure game is weaker, and the fundamental problem has not been addressed. What will happen, I think, is that once all the hype of his buffs wares off, we will see Bison for what he is. At which point they will realize, that now they can just reverse the pressure, despite the lack of air abuse, and still deal out more damage. Thus, while the primary problem has been minimized (the air abuse issue) it just covers up the fundamental problem, which is his lack of damage on his offense. In other words, they still haven’t addressed the opponent guesses right on Bison once and Bison is dead, effect, than they haven’t addressed the primary problem with the character.
btw, as for whiff punishes with s.mp; c.mp is just as good NOW, if not better, so how is this not redundant?
I really dont want to be a jackass but you should really think about dropping Bison and dont look back, you honestly just see nearly everything negative … and I start to think that you will never be satisfied until Bison get a absurd braindead pressure game that is 100% safe and can be hardcore abused or get tons of mix ups. There are some characters in the rooster that would be completely helpless against this kind of Bison … it would be the same as we complaining about the Guile MU.
This cant be the way to balance Bison … the game is/will be more footsie oriented and chars with good escape/runaway and solid speed will indirectly be buffed.
Your arguments, even if there are not totaly wrong, are based on the fact that you think that Bison needs his safe SK pressure to be able to win a match or super usefull mix up tools to land large amounts of damage. This is something that only chars with low health got or chars that all got nerfed in the current build … think about it.
As the whole balance discussion started (even before USF was announced) the Bison community discussed the main issues for Bison.
#1 issues:
AA Game
Damage Output
Comeback options
#2 issues:
Utility of Ultras
Mix up
From my point of view nearly all points (beside the mix up) are adressed or atleast got a good improvement, for the costs of 2 nerfs that will force him to be played a little less braindead.
You say that the -1 SK basically kill his pressure game, I dont see that … it will force Bison to look a bit more about the spacing and the distance but for that he got a better button and a bit more damage.
The neutral game will become more important and Bison is a monster in the neutral game, with the new st.mp & new EX SK … there is basically only 2-3 chars in the whole game that can keep up with him and can challenge his footsie tools. Pressure against Bison will become more difficult and OS will also not cover 75% of his escape options and will become more risky. DP FADC -5 on block is awesome for Bison … because it basically is only a big fat buff for him.
He now has comeback options and his defence is stronger. I agree that we will also suffer from DWU but that is nothing I am really concerned about because everybody has to deal with this. Meaties and throws will become more important which is also just good for Bison.
Maybe you can just explain me what you mean with the “fundamental” problem from Bison is not solved !? I got the impression that from your point of view Bison should be completely re-designed … if that is the case … well … pick another char … this will not happen!
Bison is now a lame bastard that is incredible hard to pin down and not lost if he dont have the life lead … because he is also able to score a nice comeback.
It would be awesome to have tricky Skull Diver Mix ups and more utility for PC … but there is also the risk of turning Bison into such a lame bastard that some MU will be become stupid easy to win.
I honestly dont want to be offensive but I really dont get your current problems with Bison in USF.
I still don’t get how you are so convinced that Bison’s pressure is gonna be weaker.
Bison’s pressure is not given by the fact that his normals are faster than the opponent, except from point blank. Instead, it’s given by the fact that his normals generally reach further than the opponent, so any of the opponent’s attempt of sticking out a normal is gonna get punished on recovery, not on startup. -1 on SK doesn’t change any of that, apart from the cr.lk -> sk pressure.
I play Fei Long and this also applies to his light rekka, which is -4. The spacing it creates makes any of the opponent’s normal whiff, leaving him open to a cr.mp, cr.mk, rekka or even cr.lp whiff punish. That’s why the opponent generally respects Fei after a blocked rekka, leaving him open to overheads and FA pressure.
The fact that the opponent deals more damage than Bison is normal, because Bison is, generally, at an advantage after a SK. The fact that the opponent does way too much more damage than Bison for guessing right is not normal, but that’s been addressed with added damage and RFA combos.
Also, cr.mp is not the same as st.mp, as the hurtboxes are completely different on the lower body. St.mp is gonna wreck low/medium attacks, it’s 1 frame faster, and deals more damage. Almost everyone who tried this seem to agree that it’s definitely better than cr.mp.
On a semi-unrelated note, I heard on that stream yesterday that Gagapa is very pleased with how EX SK changes the Guile MU. This goes against the popular belief here… Maybe there’s the possibility we just need some training, proper reactions and getting used to it?