M.bison USF4 , any Rumors of buff/nerf changes?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
641

I don’t really have much experience in the Guile matchup since it’s hard to find any good Guiles in my region or local offline community, so I can only give a half-assed opinion about it, correct me if I’m wrong.

The main reason it’s a bad matchup is because we don’t have any reasonable way of getting in and applying pressure, right?
We can’t get in on the ground thanks to sonic booms and Bison being a charge character we can’t really push him to the corner and punish sonic booms at the same time, and when we do get the chance to use ex.SK or ex.psycho he recovers too fast and we eat a full punish.
We can’t get in by air since Guile has a million anti-airs (even though he only needs like two of them that cover all our angles and options), a huge air grab and his booms recover too fast for a non-psychic punish (which is even harder thanks to Bison’s slow as shit jump).

Like everyone already said, the ex.SK buff helps…slightly. We can use it earlier and not get tagged by a slow boom, except it doesn’t really help thanks to the boom recovery, and if they block it, it’s a full punish.
So it actually made a suicidal bet turn into a bad bet.

I think they should remove the ex.SK buff and give us better air options against projectiles.
Vega can approach Guile with various air moves, and Guile has to guess or react with the right anti-air, right? Even better, he has that fucking j.MP with projectile invencibility, like Balrogs j.HP.
I think if they added the projectile invulnerability to Bison’s j.MP and added a bit more range to it, we would have some better chances of going through Guile’s defenses.
Fuck, if they don’t want to buff our j.MP due to air-to-air shit, just give those properties to hell attack, we’d have to press it twice to use it as an air-to-ground move.
That way we only slightly affect the other projectile matchups, even tought I think the matchup would still be on Guile’s favor.

642

@ Cestus,

I was looking at the link you posted before. It seems like they changed the hit boxes on skull diver and SK. Is this true or am I misunderstanding something? I know the other buffs you mentioned but the pictures you posted seemed to indicate there was a change to the boxes.

@ Shadow OS,

I applaud your optimism, I just am not sure that the fundamental problem Bison faces, which is damage output in terms of his BnB situations VS. < his opponents has really changed. IF that is so, then we will be playing the same game in the same spot. Trust me bro, I really hope your right.

One thing is certain though, just like Happy Medicine said to me and Zues at DTN, even if Bison is good “he’s gonna be lame.” And I think I speak for everyone here when I say we want to have fun with Bison, which means we want a game that involves more than just kicks.

643

I don’t know, i took that link from eventhubs (or better, i’ve just googled Bison hitbox images) as point to start(SSF4AE) to show how i will like to see PC hit/hurtbox improved
Basically stronger forward and with decent chance againts opponent from above
Maybe that pic was about transition from SSF4 to AE?
I don’t know lol, sorry if i generated confusion :smiley:

644

Yeah if PC was done right he would have a good move to take out people who jump to no end.

645

Hey guys … anyone got an idea how the PC change is changing the PC cross up game … does it do more damage or anything ?

Having a faster light PC would be amazing … but I would prefer a safer light PC as a pressure tool.

646

I don’t know how its changing but I want it to be faster on startup. It should be like the torpedo it was in ST or any other game its been featured in. The cross up PC now is too punishable.

647

You guys are too focused on the changes to the actual character, as if that is the only way matchups change. Bison benefits a lot from the changes to the universal system mechanics. DP FADC is unsafe now, making meaties slightly stronger. DWU lessens the impact of hard knockdown setups, which Bison wasn’t particularly strong at. EX RFA gives Bison a way to combo into ultra (albeit expensively). The game is de-emphasizing knockdowns and focusing more on the neutral game, which Bison excels at. This is on top of the st.mp buff, more damage, and a buffed AA.

I was going to do what Shadow did and break things down by matchup, but it’s a lot of work and he already partially did it. I think the EX-scissors buff won’t be as noticeable as Shadow thinks on most fb matchups, where EX-SK is already useful, but in the matchups where the opponent has a slow fireball (Gouken, Dee Jay, Chun, Sim). The Guile matchup will still suck. Makoto will probably be bad because now she can do stupid damage mid-screen instead of requiring the corner. Matchups will shift around, but the universal changes are net positive for him.

He might end up still playing lame, but that is a personal preference. If you still find him boring after Ultra, just choose one of the other 40+ characters.

648

Actually Bison’s most reliable setups are from throws. For example, he can be ambiguous with cross ups (be it mk or HK, J. HP or he can head stomp. Now he cannot do any of these, and the head stomp is fully punishable if he attempts it. They just killed a good majority of my knockdown game.

Does he? In the neutral game, that is, during his pressure, amibguous situations are created (as a result of the outcomes of his pressure) that forces Bison and his opponent to guess. Due to the low damage output he induces, which isn’t going to change much, he takes more damage than his opponent does. That’s Bison’s problem. I don’t see that changing during the neutral game despite his improved AA ability because, accept for dive kick mania, no one really needs to jump AT Bison when you can use neutral or back jumps, or just not jump at all and still score more damage on him with a hard combo.

If I still find him boring after Ultra, I might just quit. I want to play the character I enjoy, not some lame one I don’t.

649

yeah i asked about Hell Driver linking to PC earlier and people said no lol. Fuck you all. What else does it link to?

I wish you could helldriver -> ex HS - ex followup, OMG. Even if it’s situational. OMG!

I still think Bison needs a lot more weird buffs. Maybe not things like a fucking overhead, but would it really be that bad to make him sort of Guile like and shorten the charge times on PC and SK? If you’re nerfing SK for like the fourth or whateverth time, at least give us this.

Fuck Capcom Unity, read this thread for once.

@Ono

I still feel Bison’s changes aren’t significant enough. Look at characters like Abel or Blanka, that look to have their entire game changed up. Seth gets back njHP and Bison gets SK nerfed??? You think sMP buff is going to make the Chun Li matchup better??? Every day must be Tuesday at Capcom, because Bison hatred is a job requirement apparently.

For reference, here is the changes for Chun Li:

  • Chun-Li’s jump is 5f less now. Jump is springy and less floaty now, big visual difference.
    *this is game changing IMO. *

  • EX Kikoken knocks down.

  • Kikosho has gotten +50 damage.
    oh look her already good and comboable ultra got better

  • EX Hazanshu is now armour breaking.
    lol that fucks us BIG TIME

  • Kikosho damage is now 380, has full invincibility until the move starts.
    *really are you reading this? Bison gets nerfed to shit and she’s on her like 4th tier rising buff. *

  • Her Flip Kick (down-forward LK) now has 10 frames startup instead of 12, and its hitbox has been improved.
    seriously, don’t even look at the Bison nerf/buff change list, it will make your cry

  • Spinning Bird Kick hitbox has been improved.
    yeah because one bar Chun Li wasn’t already a fucking bitch to deal with on wakeup

  • Stamina increased to 950 (from 900).
    CHUN LI IS REAL AND BISON RAPED HER VILLAGE. THIS IS PAYBACK IRL

  • Kikosho startup is now 9f (down from 10f).
    You better have a good alt if you want any hope of getting anywhere in a tournament with Bison

edit: for real, how can we, as an SRK Bison Forum, get ONE message across to Capcom, showing our displeasure? I’m not talking a step by step tutorial on how to change him, or what’s wrong or what’s right. But a simple message saying that what they’ve done, isn’t enough. I am going out and buying your fucking game AGAIN, now give me a better Bison in exchange for the money you are raping me of. You can’t tell me what you’re offering is the best you can come up with when you have octuple buffed Chun Li and FADC Blanka Balls and the return of Seth stretchy arms and all the other great shit everybody else got.

I ain’t asking for the moon here, I just KNOW/REALIZE that Bisons USF4 changes aren’t enough, and more importantly aren’t GOOD enough

650

^^^pretty much. people aren’t realizing how much the system changes are going to benefit bison

also we’ll see about the exsk hehehehe

if that’s true then gief is almost worthless as a character

“low” damage won’t be as low thanks to sk damage buff and cancellable s.mp. more importantly, low-ish damage output isn’t a problem when relatively speaking all the big-damage set ups in this game have been nerfed so hard. for that matter, relatively speaking, bison’s “fundamental” issues have been eased thanks to all the system changes.

a huge part of the problem with the low damage+linear style of play was that bison could be playing super well for 80% of the match and have it all erased after a single KD+mix up madness. those mix ups shouldn’t be destroying bison anymore. deterring all the garbage that killed bison in tourney play is a huge boon. the whole metagame shifting is a huge boon to bison. you live longer - you get to play the game bison excels at longer. sure he’ll still have the weakness of being linear and low-ish damage (not that low anymore tbh) but those weaknesses are far less critical than they were in previous version

can you name some characters that you think bison will struggle against in the next version? because i can name very few. most are either neutral or advantageous

651

Bison does benefit from the system changes more than the buffs he actually got which realistically is only st.mp. However other character also benefit from those same changes and they did get much better stuff on top of it. That is not a good thing for us.

Side note: Stop over-hyping +10 damage which is what got added to SK. Yes it helps but it will not change matchups. Neither will the EX SK buff except to make matchups that Bison supposedly wins easier if the other person is not paying attn.

Bison’s main problem’s that I see are the following:

Linear gameplan - He’s either going to frametrap or tick throw. Not good considering one of his tick throws is easier to tech. He has no overhead nor command grab to make anyone think twice about blocking or teching. Damage for mistakes well…

Low damage output - Being somewhat addressed by st.mp buff but at prime footsie range he will still be death by a thousand papercuts. You will not have charge to cancel st.mp into SK most of the time if you are trying to advance at all and worse if it acts like cr.mp if you use it at prime footsie range it will not combo.

Useless moves - Ok maybe not all of his moves should be wtfbbq awesome but he has plenty that could see some improvment without being OP. For example: HS and skull diver not being able to be low profiled or move back a pixel and have them whiff would be a huge improvement and would still leave the backdash and punish at will vulnerability.

Hell attack - One of the key parts of Street Fighter is that jumping is supposed to be a risk. This is not so vs Bison, mostly because his main threat in neutral has been neutered in SF4 and that is Hell Attack. This needs to be a lot better on priority. People should not be able to jump almost at will on Bison unless he is knocked down

652

got bored and started playing in the training mode. here are some combos and the damage they do:

c.lkx1 > lk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 389
c.lkx2 > lk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 342
c.lkx3 > lk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 293

you can actually be too far after doing your c.lk cancels for your rfaex to connect. to solve this problem you need to use mk.sk.

jf.hp > s.hp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 520
jf.hp > c.mp > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 506

c.mk/c.mp/s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 444/459/469

s.hp > s.lk > s.mp > rfaex > u1 = 431 (i couldn’t get the first hit of the u1 to connect)
s.hp > hk.sk >rfaex > u1 = 479 (if you have time to punish with s.hp you could probably just raw u1 for more dmg and not waste meter)

jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > s.lk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 311
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 365
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > s.lk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 296
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 348

jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > s.lk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 341
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 395
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > s.lk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 326
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 378

CH s.hp > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 525 (i used s.mp in this combo because c.mk can sometimes whiff (rare) while c.mp is more difficult. s.mp is easy and does more damage than both anyway)
CH c.mp > c.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 490
CH c.mp > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 500
CH s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 = 492

c.mp > s.mp > hk.sk = rfaex > u1 = 480

jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > s.lk > hk.sk = 269
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > hk.sk = 271
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > s.lk > hk.sk = 254
jf.mk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > hk.sk = 254

jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > s.lk > hk.sk = 299
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > s.mp > hk.sk = 301
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > s.lk > hk.sk = 284
jf.hk > c.jab > s.jab > c.mk > hk.sk = 284

c.lk > s.lk > c.mk > hk.sk = 200
c.lk > s.lk > c.mp > hk.sk = 220 (suspiciously hard to connect the s.lk with s.mp in this combo)
c.lk > s.lkx2 > c.mp > hk.sk = 221 (longer time to charge/confirm than c.mk, will never whiff. didn’t experience the suspiciously hard timing after s.lkx2 in s.mp)

interesting notes:

  • if you do a nj.mk/hp and hit your opponent, comboing with c.mk will allow 2 hits of the lk.sk whereas using s.mp will only allow 1 hit. you need to commit if you use the s.mp in this case
  • best times to do rfaex into u1 are as follows:

> CH s.hp > s.mp… (+198)
> jf.hp > s.hp… (+198 dmg)
> c.mk/c.mp/s.mp > hk.sk… (+239)
> c.lkx1 > lk.sk… (+269 dmg)
> c.lkx2 > lk.sk… (+222 dmg)
> c.lkx3 > lk.sk… (+173 dmg)

the rest pf the rfaex > u1 combos add as little as 40dmg and at most ~115dmg. definitely not worth the bar unless it’s a kill move. i also didn’t bother checking the dmg difference when starting combos with s.hp because you should probably be doing raw ultra in those punish situations anyway

but the best for last (if you land it)…

hs (120) > skull diver > c.mp > c.mk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 (492) = 612
hs (120) > exskill diver > c.mp > c.mk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 (529) = 642 (costs all your meter)
hs (120) > skull diver > c.mp > s.mp > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 (512) = 632
hs (120) > exskill diver > c.mp > c.mk > hk.sk > rfaex > u1 (549) = 662 (costs all your meter but HOLY-FUCK)

you’re basically getting away with murder if you land the hs +follow up. if hs is blocked, it will be 30+(xxx) instead of 120+(xxx) which is still a HUGE amount

653

@Shadow

Thx for the work … I am pretty sure that all the crying will continue but as we can clearly see that the RFA buff will dramatically increase Bisons punish/comeback game … something he simple dont have currently.

I also tested some stuff, especially with the HS > Skull Diver > Followup … and I seriously see a problem here, it can become too strong.

If capcom would buff HS > Skull Diver … and make it a solid special … it would easily become a OP move … the damage output is absolutely ridiculous !!!

How much meter does a HS > SD > c.mp > s.mp > HK SK 1 hit … build ? Pretty sure it will nearly build one bar.

I didnt tested EX SK > RFA > ultra … basically with that you have a 4 Bar “Shit button” into Ultra … not a game changer and pretty expensive but much better than going into a low damage 3 Bar FADC combo … it is also +500 damage ! Yeah … I know … “a 4 Bar risky reversal … bla bla” … it is not a safe 2 Bar SRK FADC … BUT … it is there … it is a threat!

All this will change the 2nd or 3rd round in a match … his EX Bars are now available for damage and not only for escaping … DWU and his awesome backdash/teleport will be very solid defence tools and will make EX escape tools less important and it iwll make his throw game better because people will be more scared to push buttons or tech.

Dont missunderstand me … that all is not gamebreaking … it just adds tools and mind games … things that are not available currently.

654

@ sovi3t
You’re looking at the first build of ultra though… her jump was reverted back to floaty like immediately.

Chun deserved some buffs anyway, she was bottom tier and waaay worse than Bison. The fact that Chun does well against Bison means nothing.

655

Dude … are you seriously complaining about the Chun Li buffs ??? Seriously ??? Her faster jump is already gone … it was just to OP … the rest she got is more than fair … you ever played Chun Li … ?

Honestly … stop complaining like Bison is the worst character in the whole game and is totaly useless.
Bison got problems and yes … it would be great to see other buffs and changes … BUT … he got a lot of even MUs and also some very solid 6/4 MUs … if he would get more really good and strong buffs … there are a lot of chars that would be totaly lost against Bison.

Solutions:

  1. Stop playing Bison
  2. Pick a solid second for the MUs you cant win with Bison
  3. Stop complaining

And for all others that are crying about “Bison will be lame in USF4” … wtf … Bison is lame since Vanilla … and he will be lame in USF4 … deal with it … if you dont like it … pick another char !!!

That is like complaining about Guile being so defensive … XD

656

Shadow,

I think the biggest change Bison will benefit from is the -5 on DP’s. But that needs to effect characters like Cammy as well. Anyone with a DP, specially DP to ultra.

657

…have you not read the change list?

adon
Light/Medium/Hard Rising Jaguar: Now less advantageous after focus cancel against a guarding opponent (-5 on block)

akuma
Light/Medium/Hard Goshoryuken: Now less advantageous after focus cancel against a guarding opponent (-5 on block)

cammy
Light/Medium/Hard Cannon Spike: Now less advantageous after focus cancel forward dash against a guarding opponent (-5 on block)

e.ryu
Light/Medium/Heavy Shoryuken: More disadvantageous when dashing forward after a focus cancel (-5F)

fei long
Light/Medium/Heavy Shienkyaku: More disadvantageous when dashing forward after a focus attack cancel (-5F)

ken
Light/Medium/Heavy Shoryuken: Disadvantage on guard after a focus dash cancel forward increased (-5F on block)

oni
Light/Medium/Heavy Goshoryu: Disadvantage on guard after a focus dash cancel forward increased (-5F on block)

ryu
Light/Medium Shoryuken: Disadvantage after focus cancel forward dash on block increased (-5F on block)

sagat
Light/Medium/Heavy Tiger Uppercut: Disadvantage on block after focus cancel dash forward increased (-5 on block). Angry scar version also affected

seth
Light/Medium/Heavy Shoryuken: : Disadvantage on guard after a focus dash cancel forward increased (-5F on block)

658

Yes, I agree we definitely need higher priority (and maybe extend the hitbox upward) on Hell Attack. That move is garbage right now.

659

Oh that’s good, Shadow OS, I was told differently by some obviously (at this point) brain-dead fool.

They should add Rufus to the list though.

If they buffed hell attack, we could at least finally have a reliable comeback option.

I still think that DWU is wack. It messes with all my setups. So now I wont be able to use cross up HP/HK and bait ultras or use HS, for chip at least, without risk…lame.

660

rufus is at least -6 after FADC foward iirc so it’s already punishable. im not sure how negative rufus is in total though. i just know s.rh can punish

yes dwu screws our set ups but it helps much more than hurts imo. we lose a crap 75dmg PC crossup or ~250dmg crossup with no set ups and other characters lose tons of unblockables and more damaging setups which lead into even MORE mix ups. we lose stuff but they lose more.

and it’s not really “lost” either. just not 100% scripted flows anymore. you just have to make the decision to run your set up or not and cammy or seth not running their set ups is A-OK by my book.