M.bison USF4 , any Rumors of buff/nerf changes?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
621

by buffing his useless moves, they no longer are useless. As of right now, there are a TON of moves that literally are a death sentence if you use them in a match.

nj MP is ass and hits like one move in the entire game (whiffed Ken U1) and has literally no use as even an aa or anything else. About all you can do is whiff it and then try to throw your opponent on wakeup.

EVERY player in the game knows to focus HS and DR. DR is now usable as an escape tool if you’re willing to burn EX meter, but still is risky as fuck. This was a move that used to actually be feared in previous games, and now it’s relegated to meter gaining and nothing else.

HS is also flawed in the fact that the tracking is awful on it. It gets avoided by your opponent taking literally half a pixel of movement away from where they were. It goes THROUGH people in the air or on the ground all the time. It’s basically nothing more than a slightly risky chip tool.

Hell Attack loses to far too many moves in the air, whether they be normals or specials or any vartiation of the above. It also requires you to burn meter to follow up for piddly ass amounts of damage.

Bison needs to be something more than a chip machine with some noob combos thrown in. As it stands, like 10% of bisons tools are used, and usable. This is a slap in the face to the once boss of previous SF games.

622

It definitely is a slap in the face.

I too am unconvinced by the effectiveness of S.mp buff. As it stands now, not even talking about its speed mp, just has a horrid hit box insofar as it lacks range. sure as shadow pointed out it might have some situational AA properties now, but its not consistent, hence its cannot be reliable. Yes it gives him added damage on jump-ins and an extra 20 on BnB combos, but THAT is NOT game breaking. A buff yes, but not game breaking.

Bison’s problems stem from the fact that more than half his moves are ass. His pressure is now nerffed and the added pushback creates new problems.

He now has LESS moves given what Shodow said about HS being worthless now as a wakeup option, given delayed know down. That to me is the final straw. HS was already SO risky as an air to air, but its only saving grace was the chip factor on wakeup. Now it lacks that, making it strictly air to air, which is obviously trash given the risk reward. devil’s reverse is at best at escape option, given how punishable it is. Skull diver, even though it already sucked, is now completely useless. Teleport has ONE purpose now, and that is to evaid SOME non-meaty cross ups - i.e. where Bison teleports to the opposite side well out of the way of punish. And that has yet to be seen if some Ultras will not punish him, but I think he is safe as long as he has enough range. PC is worthless now because of DWU, which leaves, his EX moves like EX PC and SK. They are still what they are, but they are not game breaking. Perhaps EX SK is better now, but then again fireballs were never really his problem. Pressure got nerfed so overall he is nerved.

The situation looks pretty bleak.

623

I agree with pretty much 99% of what exogen is saying. St. MP is a minor buff, not game changing. It does nothing to fix his inherent deficiencies. The problem when you talk about character design is that the SF4 iteration of Bison is directionless so it kind of is pointless talking about what suits him or not in this iteration.

Devs have no idea what they’re doing with this character and they failed at what was the easiest way to integrate him into SF4. Keep his moveset as awkward, clunky and semi-useful as ST and CVS2, no real mix up game, but allow him to abuse the game mechanics to get big damage when he gets that once or twice a round opportunity. At least SFXT Bison could get big, even pseudo-TOD combos with cross up-PC combos and meter. They could have saved him if they just Frankensteined all his best qualities since Vanilla. Keep Vanilla cr. short, scissor kick pushback, st. RH hitbox and dmg. Add to that a realistic U2 (chun-li, boxer, abel U1 level of utility) and then give him his HS, DR, hell attack and skull diver from SFXT and PC from Super. Bleak future indeed.

Lastly, what’s the status of DWU exactly anyways? I thought it was only available on hard knockdown? if you scissor kick and HS and they don’t tech the knockdown, aren’t you still safe?

624

yeah I dont understand how they fixed some things in SFxT and yet left them ass here.

And both his ultras are terrible. Most other characters can combo into them, setup into them, or use them to punish a lot of other characters options. Yet Bison’s are sooooooo easily baited, avoided, and the only thing to worry about is Hell Driver which is ass, and focus attacks.

People keep thinking how great he will be since they buffed MP, completely ignoring the other SUPERIOUR buffs that everybody else got. I’d say that Bison got nerfed to probably C-Tier.

625

Nobody has understood what I meant apparently. I’m not saying Bison doesn’t have useless moves, I’m saying he doesn’t need them to be a complete character. What he needs is a buff to his damage output (check), an AA (check, well sort of), and some ways to get in (definitely not check). Buffing his useless moves won’t address any of that, period.

Like I said, there are plenty of characters with a bajilion useless moves, and still at the top of the tiers. If you give a character 300 moves with 70 startup and 1 damage, plus one that hits fullscreen, has 0 startup, is unblockable and kills the opponent, would you complain about his 300 useless moves?

Sure, it may be bad design, but since when was SF4 well designed?

@ exogen: I see you’re so desperate about HS being completely useless with dwu. How about not using it? Nobody is forcing you to.

626

HS has its uses now, even though it isn’t great.

here is the problem as I see it with HS.

With delayed wake up/DWU if he attempts head stomp he will miss but they will get up with enough time to puish Bison making it impossible to use. If he PC’s for instance he will miss. But crossup PC, which was given to Bison as a “buff” after Vanilla is largely punishable anyway (irrespective of the knockdown being untechable or not), so this isn’t really a big loss, it just illustrates the uselessness of the move.

Now I can still follow up after a lk scissor kick wth head stomp, which is 2 frames faster, but given the negative one (-1) after the lk SK, that makes it nearly break even doesn’t it…The result is that they can escape it with a backdash. Now perhaps my fears are misguided one might say here, but all this really shows is that the head stomp hasn’t changed with respect to techable knockdowns and is WORSE with untechable (which was where the move had its main strength. Thus, head stomp, given that the move OVERALL is LESS effective than it was in AE and prior, it technically has been nerfed, despite the 2 frame startup decrease.

627

Being -1 doesn’t mean the animation lasts 1 frame longer, just that it does 1 frame less blockstun. That setup is still perfectly intact

628

They haven’t mentioned anything on making headstomp faster in terms of its speed when tracking the opponent, the hitbox appear 2 frames faster and that’s it, if I understand it correctly.

exogen

St.Mp is an excellent tool when you have 3 bars. It is really a great buff if you combined it with ExRF. You are really underestimating its utility.

629

when I look at the whole package, I think you’re overestimating it.

630

Ok, gotcha on that setup being intact, fair enough. But the DWU still effects the head stomp on throws, which is the time when it is most effective. NOW it doesn’t work because he is left open, so its nerd.

631

So only now people are coming around to my point of view?

632

I was always with you. They’ve always shown that the Devs completely misunderstand bison or just don’t care at all about analyzing him and refining him as a character. Really the best Bison has been was in Super with compromises even, and its been downhill for him since. They took a big step forward with him in SFXT, he not only takes good advantage of the system mechanics but his given moveset works pretty well as average options to compliment his boost chain footsie game. It boggles my mind that they’re taking such a huge step back.

His moveset can only be taken so far in this game. It’s as someone once said on SRK, I don’t remember who but I think it was one of the OG srk dictators: his moveset can be either ass or OP, they’re too out of place, old and clunky to actually ‘balance’. Like, how could head stomp be really good but not OP? It’s like an impossible riddle lol.

633

I totally agree with this.
Sure i’m going to sound super casual, but have options help variety and make the gameplay more fun imho.

Btw i understand the uber competitive player point of view: Capcom is strange at buff/nerf, and the fear is that if they buff something situational or new options oriented, it automatically steal a potential buff to fundamental tools
And this mentality get boosted by the buff/nerf race, see X got buffed, Y got buffed, so there is a sense of "eh fuck new options, give me teh buffs i need to stay alive!"
I respect this opinion because come from peoples that understand the game mechanic way more than me… but still i can’t stop think that many times players just seem refuse to change/adapt theyr style, they just want keep play the same and get better result

Personally i don’t want surrend to bad design, i understand that SF is about essentiality, but if a character have 4-5 moves they at least should TRY to make all useful.
Then ok, some moves will still be weak, but if the character got better having new good options instead just being a stronger version of the previous same character, imho is still a win

Also i think sometimes peoples don’t get that hug the single good tool and pray for buff on it usually with Capcom don’t work, on the contrary they tend to try “force” peoples gamestyle out of single-move comfort zone.
Problem is that while they are good at see overused tools and nerf it (Lol), they often are not as good at give new option buffs
They seem to want to diversify the action, but imho they miss the point… they want us to be ambidextrous, but instead buff the left hand, they just break fingers of the right :smiley:

Btw i’m Gief player too and that make me see USF4 Dictator under a positive perspective: stMP into specials and exRFA (universal, but give Bison something he never had) sound awesome as new options

Go watch Gief, the just nerfed exBF and Lspd… fine with it, now tell me what i get as exchange :frowning:

Peoples imho are too used at accept Capcom’s inability to provide evolution

Now is meter-free, you don’t need anymore exPC to connect

634

The hell attack being able to link to normal PC is good, but it is not consistent. Its not part of his BnB. Sure they buffed it, but the move itself is situational in terms of its opportunities to land it. Otherwise it just get’s beat out by just about everything. Now if they had buffed the bit box on it or something, THAT would be a different story.

Ultimately though the DWU has me upset because it really is a nerf to Bison, a nerf that is not being considered.

635

It’s more a buff than a nerf imo. Knockdown pressure will be much less effective, which can only be good for Bison

636

Yeah i will like if they buff damage (was supposed to be the powerful one, now SK is almost the same dmg and is waaay more useful) and hit/hurt box
http://www.eventhubs.com/images/2011/sep/30/m-bisons-hit-box-information-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-image-2/

Hitbox bigger forward and up, imagine just double height (basically add one over) and long enough to surpass forward the hurtbox

As it is now it does’nt reflect what the move is supposed to be

As dmg i will like

L 140
M 150
H 170
Ex 150

It seem fair, if i can not care about risk OP, i will go with H 180 and Ex 200 :smiley:

Or

I will like have a power-up like Sagat Scar, and get a through-firebals dmg buffed PC, with Ex version that can take/give one more hit and good great dmg.
This may help against Guile maybe?

637

@Cestus,

Wait, say what about the SK, I am not following. I looked at the link of the boxes on his moves, but are you referring to EX SK or just normal SK. has there been any changes aside from the -1 on block and the supposed greater pushback? Your saying the hotboxes/hurtboxes have been adjusted as well? Please elaborate and give an example so I can visualize this.

638

i still think everyone is counting bison out way too early. let’s try this…

who are Bison’s problem match ups (4-6 at least)?

  • abel - abel’s buff don’t harm bison. dwu and s.mp help bison
  • cammy - tons of nerfs help bison. dwu helps bison, s.mp i haven’t tried yet, but i think will be so-so
  • gen - lots of buffs hurt bison. dwu helps bison, s.mp probably will not help
  • guile - lots of buffs hurt bison. dwu helps guile, s.mp only good in corner
  • seth - buffs don’t hurt bison, nerfs to stun helps bison. dwu helps bison more, s.mp will be good
  • gief - too hard to say due to design changes. dwu, s.mp, c.fierce all help bison immensely but KD exgh may be a nightmare if caught
  • deejay - buffs don’t harm bison, nerfs help bison. s.mp will be decent but exsk will be extremely good
  • yun - buffs don’t harm bison. s.mp will be very good, dwu helps bison

out of 8 bad match ups, 5 have been improved to a very respectable degree. one for sure gets worse (guile anyway), one gets somewhat worse (gen), and one is too hard to tell but can go either way (gief)

now let’s venture into the 5-5ish to 6-4 zone

  • akuma - buffs dont harm bison, nerfs help bison. dwu helps bison, s.mp mostly useless. exsk excellent
  • balrog - buffs/nerfs no effect on bison. s.mp will be very good for more damage
  • blanka - buffs slightly hurt bison. dwu slightly helps bison, s.mp will be so-so
  • viper - buffs slightly hurt bison. dwu helps bison a lot, s.mp will be so-so
  • chun-li - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. dwu/s.mp mostly irrelevant. exsk will be huge.
  • dan - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. dwu/s.mp mostly irrelevant
  • dhalsim - buffs hurt bison far away. s.mp will be very good once dhalsim is cornered. exsk moderate help (already very good)
  • honda - buffs don’t harm bison, nerf (exhb) will be huge help.
  • fuerte - buffs hurt bison. dwu helps bison. s.mp utility to be seen
  • fei long - nerfs help bison a lot. dwu helps fei more. s.mp will be good
  • gouken - buffs don’t harm bison. dwu helps gouken more. s.mp will be so-so. exsk will be huge help
  • ken - overall buffs harm bison slightly. dwu helps bison more. s.mp will be mostly useless. exsk will be huge
  • rose - overall buffs harm bison. s.mp utility to be seen. sk will be huge
  • rufus - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. dwu helps bison. s.mp will be very good
  • ryu - buffs don’t harm bison. dwu helps bison more. exsk will be huge. s.mp more or less useless
  • sagat - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. s.mp will be good. exsk will be huge
  • sakura - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. bison buffs no real effect on sakura. more or less the same MU
  • vega - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. bison buffs no real effect on vega. more or less the same MU
  • adon - buffs don’t harm bison. nerfs slightly help bison. dwu helps bison, s.mp will be decent
  • cody - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. bison buffs no real effect on cody. s.mp on the fence. more or less the same MU
  • dudley - buffs don’t harm bison. dwu better for dudely. s.mp will be good. already a super hard mu for dudley
  • guy - buffs slightly harm bison. dwu better for bison. s.mp will be decent. MU more or less the same
  • hakan** - buffs slightly harm bison. s.mp utility to be seen. MU more or less the same
  • ibuki - buffs/nerfs no real effect on bison. bison buffs no real effect on ibuki. s.mp not too good. more or less the same MU
  • juri** - buffs hurt bison. dwu helps bison. s.mp probably useless. MU more or less the same
  • makoto - buffs hurt bison decently. bison buffs mostly useless in this MU (don’t know how well s.mp will be)
  • thawk - buffs hurt bison. s.mp will be very good. MU already very good for bison
  • e.ryu - buffs no real effect on bison. s.mp more or less useless. exsk will be huge
  • oni - buffs slightly hurt bison. s.mp mostly useless. exsk will be huge
  • yang - buffs very slightly hurt bison. s.mp utility to be seen. dwu helps bison more

^^^^and all that doesn’t even take into account the ENORMOUS buff that DP characters can’t reverse our pressure for 2 bars anymore without risking FULL COMBO

**personally i think hakan and juri will turn out to be pretty bad match ups once the characters are explored and refined more

what do you see? you see most of bison’s bad match ups get better. a very large portion of his even match ups are now in his favour, match ups that he was already winning range from getting slightly worse for him, slightly better for him, or remaining the same. only 2-3 MUs went from bad to worse (guile, gen, probably hakan and juri)

the system mechanics of dwu in almost every case is better for bison than his opponent, or has no effect on the match up. the -5 dp change is, i repeat, ENORMOUS. in most the matches s.mp is useless (typically shotos or characters with spamy lows) exsk blows them up HARD (shotos again), or have been nerfed immensely (eg cammy).

the buffs other characters are getting are in a lot of cases completely irrelevant to how bison should be playing the match ups anyway. who cares if seth is less negative with fs.hp? rufus fs.mk more active? oni a ton of tiny frame buffs - big whoop. ken’s ton of buffs - your new zoning should wreck him.

anyone see what i mean now or am i still speaking crazy talk?

oh yeah and feel free to ask why i think some match ups are bad/good/even for bison. ive made a handful of questionable statements (and i won’t mind breaking it down)

639

No, read what the dude i’ve quote say we was talking about PC, and i said how i will like seen PC buffed :smiley:

SK was mentioned because it was already good and used a lot more than PC because power aside is more useful
And now SK got power buff too:

•Light Knee Press: Disadvantage on block increased (0F->-1F)
•Light Knee Press: Damage increased (6030->6040)
•Medium Knee Press: Damage increased (6050->6060)
•Heavy Knee Press: Damage increased (7060->7070)
•EX Knee Press: Damage increased (7070->7080)
•EX Knee Press: Projectile invincibility extended (1F~12F->1F~19F)

And exPC nerfed
•EX Psycho Crusher: Damage reduced (7575->7560)

Basically now
SK L100 M120 H140 ex150
PC L120 M130 H140 ex135

With SK being way more useful, ex very good, and exRFA combo into Ultra

Of course i like buffs on SK, but i will like have true buffs to give PC a reason to exist… be it brute good dmg buff to be used as risk-reward or as huge combo ender, or something else (i really like my SagatScar buff idea, but of course i’m not a developer and may be straight stupid)

I just like the move itself, but as now PC is kinda weak aside some situations

640

As Gief player too, don’t worry Gief basically got almost only nerfs :frowning:

In last build they removed the knock down buff from exGH, but they keep
•EX Banishing Flat: Starts up slower (13F->16F)

This as last buid, maybe in next KD will return… after all Ryu’s U2 buff was introduced, then removed, then added again :smiley:

Also i don’t know how much new mechanics help him
-Double Ultra is nice but he’s in the small group that get 40% dmg nerf (instead 25% like everyone else)
-He don’t got AB stuff to break RFA outside throw range
-Watching KingBlackToof mod seem like he’s going to be one of the very few (the only?) that can’t combo into exRFAlv1-> Ultra

Is soon to speak, they said to expect in next build to see buffed who got less… and Gief got almost only nerfs
But i will not be surprised if Gief just end up fucked