I can AA Gouken lol
Nice video dude!
If i can ask, can you do one with exRFAlv1 into Ultra1 combos? It will be cool 
They’re retards too, da fuq you jumping for?
Exactly, thus my sarcasm.
Anyway, the point I was making before was that sure he has a few more AA options, but they aren’t solid and consistent. It just means he has more situational opportunities to AA. And while I can’t say that’s a bad thing, it is ultimately not a final solution to the AA issue.
But his lack of AA has never been the real problem with the character. It has been his poor offense, lack of options, poor damage, lack of comeback potential, and moves that don’t work.
the Mp buff, while it does help the damage output problem somewhat, it doesn’t target the problem where its source is. Bison needs to have his moves buffed, and possibly damage increase on certain moves. They don’t need to go through this trouble of adjusting his sk and all that nonsense.
Fix skull diver,
head stomp,
devils reverse,
psycho crusher,
hell attack,
…just the normal versions (not even EX),
and perhaps increase the damage of key normals and specials (perhaps) and Bison would be FINE!!
Yes for fucking headstomp. I was playing the other day, went through my opponent with ex when they jumped. THROUGH HIM. Wished I was playing online to save the replay. Hell Attack is only good online, on grounded opponents, it’s unblockable. People just stand there and not block. The best thing about Bison right now it’s hearing him go “Meh” or “HWAP!”.
exogen, st.mp already does much more damage than cr.mk, so there’s no reason to use that anymore. That alone is a direct damage increase, isn’t it?
I also don’t understand your passion for buffing his useless moves. Can’t we just pretend Bison never had those, so we can focus on the actual moves? He doesn’t need them in order to be good, so let’s just leave them alone. Besides, all characters have some useless moves, but these are not what defines them and do not weaken them in any way.
Sure, I too would like to toy around with some more gimmicks, but that’s just for the fun factor.
Spinknuckle, Frankenstiener, and normal Jaguar Tooths are pretty useless outside of very niche situations.
Ok guys let me put it like this.
As far as the other characters you put up there, sure they have some useless moves…but NOT AS MANY AS BISON!!!
Seriously dudes, we all know he has S.HK, SK and C.LK lol that’s it.
anything else is situational and sparse.
And yes I acknowledge what you say Duaie with respect to MP taking more damage, thus giving us a reason to use it. But its not THAT much more damage (1), but more importantly, it gives us no NEW damage opportunities, from a strategic perspective, that he didn’t have before. It just buffs what he has. Which isn’t a bad thing, it just isn’t fixing the problems he has.
Bison’s problems are not generated from his lack of damage output per se, but he lack of having situations that he can deal effective damage.
For instance, if hell attack worked better, being maybe faster with slightly better hotbox, he could really punish jump ins, which would already give me more damage opportunities, not only with juggles but simply because of Ultra. he would get greater damage AND comeback all in one buff.
If they fixed his air moves, not even to make them Godlike, but just so they worked, he would have better follow up potential making it so that when Bison get’s you on an un teachable knockdown it is BAD for you, but as it is BAD for Bison if HE gets knocked down now, despite his EX moves and his OSable teleport.
buffing crusher would enable him to punish various people who jump, and really lunge at you from far. All they really need to do is just decrease the startup time so he more or less goes right into it instead of the absurd wait time on startup which makes it useless. PC takes such good damage it would be fine.
After that if he STILL needs help, we are really just talking about increasing the damage on some of his moves and normals.
Bison has always been a simple character that has NEVER been about combos or AA’s for that matter. The fact that they are giving him these, which if you ask me don’t make a strong case for him, is just evidence that they are covering up the real problems with a bandied solution and departing from the whole design of the character.
my impression after playing with a couple of my friends (ryu, deejay, zangief)…
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this new c.fierce is killing me a lot of the time. because the old version was so slow my reactions had to be super fast. now im throwing c.fierce too fast that its active frames are already over and i’m just eating full combos. it’s really weird having to slow myself down to make it work in the previous situations. it’s interesting to note that c.fierce can RFAEX and get a crumple. of course there are very few realistic situations where you’ll do this but i can think of at least two
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s.mp is fun as hell to fish with. VERY good compliment to stuttering your movements, or backing up and going for frame traps similar to c.mk. it WILL make people a lot more wary of pressing buttons and teching. i have a hard time plinking it though, i need to adjust with new timing. i keep getting accidental PCs in some of my cancels. im already whiff punishing into sk tons of stuff c.mk wasn’t good enough for. there are definitely times you want to use c.mk over s.mp though mainly because a decent amount of low attacks goes under s.mp. i would cry with joy if ch s.mp was +6 because A LOT of the time you’re gonna be landing counter hits. you may be trading a decent amount with this button too but a 90 damage trade in those ranges are always your favour
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i’m not sure if the sped up DR is in this mod but ive traded a number of times against giefs lariat on the way down against my friend where im almost never do that. i think this is happening because instead of falling on top of his head bison now falling closer to the edge of gief’s arm. it can be my imagination but idk for sure. i really really don’t like this change though because there are dozens and dozens of matches i won by weaving in the air and just barely hitting the opponent with the last frame or just barely having them whiff in front of me
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dwu is really really really fucking annoying. so many missed cross up crushers and LOTS of missed chip setups with HS that i used to use to finish rounds are EXTREMELY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY risky to do now. before you could get away with it, now you’re REALLY asking to lose the round. the opponent will basically always be getting up right in front of you as you’re in the middle of recovery and it spells disaster. i haven’t had much of a chance to use it to my benefit yet so i can’t comment fully. i still think it’s an overall buff but it does have its downsides… like no more easy safe jf.fierce set ups on KD anymore
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extra damage on SK is noticeable. it really stacks up during the course of a round. i frequently hit people with the tip of SK so it works out well for me at least
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-1 sk is somewhat noticeable mid-screen, but not very much. it is however pretty noticeable when you have your opponent in the corner. my friends who were never really good at dealing with that corner pressure were trading with me and getting out a little easier. definitely detracts some pressure***
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exsk FB invinc buff is just so silly. i don’t joke when i say i think bison will have some 7-3s in his favour because of it. i just stare at my friend’s ryu and he literally cannot do a thing about it
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not once in my probably 75+ games now did i ever think “good thing i RFA’d”. doing RFA raw is a waste of meter pure and simple and does not help bison in any way. in this respect, bison got a nerf as it will be better for other characters to fish bison with it. on the other hand, ive already developed a tendency to expc immediately when i see red so im pretty sure 95% of the time ANYWHERE in this game raw RFA will be a solid waste of two bars. i can’t imagine people having trouble countering it easily. i used to do exsk so now reacting with expc scores me more damage personally
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RFAEX is decent. i never really feel comfortable using 3 bars to score the ultra but it is a decent come back factor now. i recommend everyone practice in training mode when they get the chance because depending on when you RFAEX will change the amount of damage you actually get by a large amount (im talking ~100 damage differences)
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teleport nerf was definitely noticeable while recovering, but my friends were never really good at punishing the original version anyway. they still had trouble punishing this worse tele LOL. this nerf will undoubtedly become a major hindrance against tougher opponents. you can still use it very well to give yourself space however, and it still works excellent when you autocorrect it
my overall feeling on how bison is going to play…
we’re still going to be playing it pretty lame, but with the ability to fish with s.mp you’re going to get a lot more chances at aggression. while s.mp is very good, its somewhat noticeable weakness vs decent reaching lows means you can’t be brain dead with it. you’ll also need to be wary of using it too much in place of s.mk or s.rh because your opponent can choose to jump on top of you. you may also be tempted to try to link s.mp from c.mp but you’re going to have to learn the ranges where this will work. quite a few times i was just out of reach and missed extra damage where i should have just s.mk, or other times i tried to get a cancel out where i should have just s.rh. s.mp is also a very good frame trap in place where you’d try to c.mp - i frequently saw opponents getting CH on startup where c.mp would get tagged
the sk nerf will likely become more apparent in the corner as the metagame develops but with s.mp you actually are able to keep them in the corner just as well with the benefit of doing more damage if you actually caught them. at mid screen the -1sk nerf isn’t very noticeable and isn’t a game ender for bison. you can still get quite a few reps in the corner because people are going to be terrified of s.mp
delayed wake up sort of ruins a lot of good pressure and mix up opportunities that we used to have but dwu affects everyone in that respect. very annoying regardless and it may honestly just be even more necessary to always stay on the ground as bison and dont ever bother with mix ups/ambiguous jump ins. better to just keep your position than risk so much life now. if dwu was the reason for nerfing teleport, i disagree with that decision entirely because using teleport in a situation where you’d now try to dwu was probably a very bad time to try to tele anyway. there was no point to this nerf.
most bison players are going to be spending a fair bit amount of time adjusting their rhythms to be more in tune with s.mp and cr.fierce and re-learning the very fine ranges we’ve all known for 5+ years now. we’ll get some new ranges to control, but most importantly i think it will be hardest learning when to use s.mp within our combos or sticking to the older combos, and learning when to use s.mp over s.mk and s.rh. once you guys actually play around with s.mp im sure you’ll understand what i mean by that much better
if you actually read my wall of text you’d know that i mentioned a lot of things to do with s.mp. that’s because this move will undoubtedly become the centrepiece to bison’s improved style. it really is the perfect compliment to this character and i think bison can now win tournaments and he will definitely be a no-brainer counter pick against FB characters
@ exogen
My point about st.mp was to counter your argument that it was a situational damage increase. It’s not, it’s a raw damage buff, along with SK dealing more damage. You say it’s too little? Maybe. IMO though, these 20 damage per hit add up pretty fast in a match, so it might make a pretty big difference in the long run.
What do you mean exactly by saying he lacks the opportunities to do damage? He can’t get in? He can’t AA? He’s too charge dependant? He has no mixup/comeback potential? Because while I may agree with you on that, buffing his useless moves wouldn’t solve any of it. Sure, you can buff hell attack for a damage increase in air-to-air situations, but how would that be better than just giving him a proper anti-air AND a general damage increase? It would be a way more solid solution if you ask me.
Don’t get me wrong, I too used to think like that for a while, and I was convinced that giving him an AA wouldn’t be part of his design. However I changed my mind pretty quickly when I realized characters like Fei Long or Balrog are exactly like that! So why not making him a more complete character at this point?
@ shadow
Awesome, thanks for the info.
I have a question: does the version of the mod you’re playing display “technical” when doing a DWU? If not, do you think having that would alleviate the issue a bit? Or maybe too much, making DWU useless?
the mod indeed displays “technical” when a dwu happens but you’ll already have figured out they did a dwu before you even see the notification. the delay of 11 frames is really obvious. the word “technical” is probably to make it easier for scrubs to understand what’s happening.
you’re either gonna run your set up and have it whiff but have enough time to decide if you’re gonna meaty, or run your set up and have it work as normal. what i think is going to happen is that everyone is just going to run their setups as normal unless they have a solid read on a dwu, then make the decision to adjust before hand. kind of like baiting out a reversal
i feel like it breaks the flow of the match tbh. sort of like a quick slap in the face and you go “what the f-- oh…”
dwu is a terrible way of dealing with unblockables and ambiguous setups
So does “technical” show up immediately as soon as you land, or does it show up later, when the actual delay starts?
Because if it happens immediately, some characters like Ibuki might have a chance to survive after all. When scoring a neckbreaker, instead of whiffing a st.lp for timing, if you see “technical”, you could whiff a st.mp instead and have the setup still work.
It doesn’t seem so by the way you said it though.
I too never liked this mechanic at all tbh
it’ll probably be better to use this video as reference rather than the mod:
Watch when makoto back throws sagat into the corner around 1m27s
Ah okay, so it was the latter.
There’s no reason not to do it then, I mean is there any way to punish it? Or any risk involved whatsoever?
mmm all it does it add an extra guessing game on wake up. if you think your opponent is gonna dwu then most, if not all characters can probably just whiff one extra normal and do the same setup. i think it was m16ghost that said all we have to do as bison players is add a s.lk and resume business as normal if we smell dwu
there is no risk involved in dwu. you do it to throw your opponent off. the only risk is dwu being read by your opponent
i read somewhere that there was “already tech being discovered” to deal with dwu, but i dont believe there can ever be a catch-all scenario in terms of OSs
On the AA issue; I just never agreed that he should have an AA. The character has never been about that AA life. He is all about offense at the cost of defense. The problem with Bison is he lacks offense, not defense.
He lacks damage opportunities because his high damaging combos are driven by jump-ins and his FADC extensions blow due to scaling. I’m saying if they buffed his moves so they worked, and perhaps increased the damage in certain cases, it would give him more damage and viable opportunities to do that damage. Not just walk and kick.
Every time Capcom “buffs” Bison it is a let down. PC crossup can be countered on reaction…wtf
Shadow OS,
from your analysis it seems overall Bison sucks. Since I haven’t played it I can’t really challenges your assessments, but what you have said, by and large, is depressing. S.mp seems to be his only real buff, and it really isn’t game breaking. With dwu killing HS, that just puts the nail in the coffin. omg, so now he has COMPLETELY useless air moves. Wow.
In CvS2 his cr.HP was a very good anti-air. It was like Guy’s ver.2012 cr.MP. It wasn’t angled upward, but it had a big enough hitbox and came out fast. Also, his st.HP in that game is his close st.HP in this game so that was a good anti-air as well.
@ exogen
I understand your point of view, I really do, but honestly, who cares if it’s not part of his design? As I said many times, why should Fei Long have an AA (and an extremely good one too) but not Bison? Fei too was designed to be an offensive, mid range character, and he falls in the same character archetype as Bison.
Not having an AA is just an hindrance, and it’s something that goes beyond the character design. I don’t think Shadow’s analisys made Bison look weak: sure, maybe he was a bit over-optimistic, but to me Bison seems, if anything, just more solid overall.
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