London Thread 2011

Regional Matchmaking Canada
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In other words, Capcom made the game easier in order to get more people interested in buying the game.

On one side, it’s good for the community to grow as I have previously said. But on the other hand, making the game easier makes it less rewarding to be a veteran. In other words, it closes the gap between the good and the bad. Scratch that. It splits the skill level into just the good and the bad. Harder games would have more variance in skill levels: good, bad, worse, better, godly, abysmal, etc. In other words, it would mean more to be good in a hard game than in an easy game.

As for people raging because of change, that may also be a problem. Change can be good and I am not one to say whether or not it is, but it is mainly the change in overall difficulty that people rage at.

That being said, MvC3 is fun :stuck_out_tongue:

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LOL, now that’s inspiration

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http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2121/3304a30eb92325269059102.jpg

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I wasn’t going to say anything else, however the last few comments cept for Mihai’s pic of that guy (Tokido? I don’t actually know what he looks like, I know shame on me) riled me up.

I’m all for change for the better. I’m all for making the game easier to pick up. You can only perfect something not when you have nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away. If fewer buttons, toning down obvious op bullshit nonsense and finding that overall sweet spot in difficulty; in general make fighting gaming better, than go ahead and create change I say.

However when you change certain mechanics or aspects of the game that weren’t broken and should have been left the hell alone because people find them frustrating at first (key phrase here), well, that’s just catering to laziness. Overcoming these hurdles would be very rewarding for the player.

They are making games a lot less fun for the sake of sales. That is sad. It’s not the game companies fault either. People have gotten lazier and weaker. No wonder arcades can’t survive anymore, people are too lazy and cheap to go out and interact with other human beings. A sign of the times really.

Point is, it’s not harder being a veteran, because the same names plus a very few new ones are top right now. The skill levels are still apparent, even with any new randomness added in, and let’s face it, sf games have been full of random nonsense from day one and still are.

At the end of the day, like I said before in the ranking thread, if you like playing a game, even 4 or MVC3, than good for you. I say play the hell out of it and then some. It’s not like those games aren’t playable, it’s not like they are total disasters like that stupid DC vs MK shit. They are playable and tournament worthy games. Period.

The overall message to the newer breed of players is this. When the old geezers of the bygone age of sf grumble about the new games, it’s not because they are losing, are elitist and hate having to compete with newbs on an equal footing (your ego is still going to the hospital when we break you mentally either way) or don’t like change (well who does at first really). It’s because we know that fighting games and games in general are losing out on what made them so fun in the first place. We know that the newer breed of players are missing out on more potential fun to be had. That’s the whole point of this hobby, to enjoy yourself. I think I wrote a nice post about what makes street fighter fun in the Anime North thread of last year. Goes off to find and read said post.

Whoa never fucking mind, it’s just me incensed with nerd rage writing semi comprehensible drivel.

Basically I what I wanted to convey in that post is that, outside of the corporate money making agenda already mentioned, the competitive side of gaming is by and far the most enjoyable part of it. When your pitting your pride and skills against strangers, your friends, your enemies and every person in between, winning or losing, you walk away very much fulfilled. Especially when the game being played is a really good game. As opposed to just messing around “for fun”, which is a casual attitude that doesn’t build bridges folks, and certainly not vibrant scenes that will last the test of time.

What makes a good game? I challenge all the newer players to put some time into the older titles, even for shits and giggles. Yes they look uglier than the newer games and some of the mechanics will seem assbackwards as fuck (they are certainly not perfect and with good reason), but if you keep messing around with them, you may discover a few things.

TLDR: Everyone calm the fuck down. Everybody has their reasons for liking their games. Let’s all just live and let live, and play what we want. I think further discussion on this subject will only harm the new scene which we older guys have no business doing. If your new and are afraid to come out and play, don’t be, the scene is very welcoming and friendly, in fact it never has been this friendly and welcoming.

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For example?

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Safe Jump.

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[media=youtube]H4UDUkMqhyA#t=3m07s[/media]

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That works against practically every other character.

Of course once you land and start jabbing leading into the command grab, your susceptible to SRK, fat people grab, super and other reversals right before the mMMMMMMMMMMMM.

But you can at least do it to people, no stupid 0 frame startup SRK or EX reversal that stops ALL jump ins.

Plus, less lenient inputs mean you can’t just spam reversal, and that goes for command grabs.

The point is that you have to commit to your attacks. If you get knocked down, your going to pay for it.

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I just posted that link cause I thought it was funny…I agree with everything you said…cept what you just posted now about Hawk’s loop, which I think (not sure) is inescapable if done right vs most of the cast. The j. jab safe jump, cancelled into his Uppercut beats some uppercuts, and not others. Obv the guy playing in the vid knew that it works vs Cammy. I think Ken is one of the only characters in ST that has a 1 frame SRK (jab and fierce? I forget) that can’t be safe jumped. I don’t think Hawk’s j. jab safe jump works on him, but I would need to test, or maybe someone else knows for sure. For everyone else, if you do anything vs the j. jab, he will block and you will eat a knockdown, followed by another safe jump (in the corner). So most characters are forced to block it. Then they gotta block the c. jab x2 or 3? Again, not sure of the distance, but T.Hawk basically does enough c. jabs to push you out of your throw range, then he does his negative edge Typhoon which is 0 frame (like all command throws in ST), and has no whiff animation. So you can reversal SRK or super, but Hawk will just block, and in most cases punish you (cept supers like Bison’s which are safe, even to 0 frame grabs I think). If you try to reversal throw, I believe his Typhoon will get you because he’s pushed you out of your throw range. If you do a reversal command throw of your own, and it reaches far enough to connect, then I dunno what happens.

Bottom line, I’m not 100% sure, but I think Hawk’s loop is inescapable loop in the corner vs almost everyone. Of course, it’s also very hard to do compared to new games where tick throwing can be done in one’s sleep.

edit: I think even vs. safe reversal supers, Hawk may have the advantage during the safe jump. If his uppercut beats these reversal supers, then they would be knocked down again, this time with no chance to escape. For example, Chun/Bison could do reversal super to get out of the loop vs the safe jump IF their supers beat Hawk’s uppercut. If they don’t, then theoretically they could escape after the jabs, but this would be a guess highly not in their favour, because Hawk is safe regardless when he uses negative edge Typhoon AND they have to guess when to input the motions for the super (1, 2, or 3 c. jabs?). So anyway, being knocked down in the corner vs a good Hawk = ggpo.

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I have been playing sf since 02. I have yet to find a sf game that doesn’t have scrubby bullshit in it. It all comes down to the player to defeat it. I’ve heard “the sky is falling” nonsense in every competitive game i’ve played (almost as much as the cry of the super scrub).

Point is this: You can play the new games competitively and try to make a name for yourself, or you can stick to the old games (which i still love) and play for fun. “Change” is rarely only good or bad… but you have to make due with what you as a player expect to do with these games. I do not believe in any “dark side” of the force, but only something someone taught me long ago “knowledge reigns supreme over nearly everything”.

I believe this to be the absolute truth of street fighter. Knowledge and desire will take you where you want to be. Hatred and wanting people to die will only end up corrupting your play style and weakening your skills.

Edit: If Hajime wanted all of his opponents to die, then why did he allow Alioune to continue playing him after he pressed start during the beat by contest yesterday?

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Is that it?

Safe jump is when you time your jump in just as your opponent is getting up so your active frames co-incide with the beginning inactive frames of his reversal?

This is why you are damning all games after SF2? Not judging just wanna know.

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Knowledge doesn’t reign supreme in SF. As an example, take Josh, who (no offense buddy) doesn’t know shit about the game (compared to players who play it regularly), yet is easily top3 in London and makes me have to counter pick him (Blanka/Abel) to not fall asleep playing his Guile. Why? Cause he’s got old school fundamentals: he doesn’t jump, he blocks a lot, techs well, and plays safe to the point of boring. And this is exactly what SF comes down to. You gotta play safe and adapt to ppl by either fighting fire with fire (turtling harder than them, picking the same character, etc.), or fighting fire with water (counter characters, abusing ppl’s weaknesses). This is why an old school player can often beat new schoolers with super basic shit…cause they know what they’re gonna do, and they can win with just a few buttons. You can have all the knowledge in the world, but if your opponent can out read you, you have almost no chance in hell to win. The game is VERY simple in its design. One person attacks, the other defends, or both turtle and the game becomes a test of patience. Once some1 gets in it’s just a matter of small 50/50 type exchanges (attack or throw). Based on these small exchanges, it’s obvious who is going to win the round usually within the first few seconds because you can extrapolate damage exchanged and figure out who’s gonna reach 0 damage soonest.

This isn’t about SSF4 or MVC3 having stuff that’s difficult to beat. SSF4 is the easiest SF game to learn by far. What makes ppl mad is how scrubby the game is, period. And the sky isn’t falling, it’s already fallen. Look around you, if you can’t see that everything, including SF, has become massively commodified, then I dunno what to tell you cept keep believing the game hasn’t fallen from grace.

Or you can keep playing the old games and be the best that you can be. Change is always good or bad. If an asteroid falls on my head, it’s bad. If I fall down the stairs, it’s bad. You can take the philosophical/determinist approach and say that “oh, so and so wouldn’t have happened if you hadn’t fallen down the stairs”, but the bottom line is that you can very easily isolate an event and classify it as good or bad within a personal moral context. Now, was Capcom making SF4 bad? Yeah it was. I don’t give a shit if it revived the community anymore. The game is bad. It also had a ton of bad side effects like turning a huge portion of the community into soft, lazy YouTube fanatics, stream monsters, tutorial making hypocrites, and theory fighting scrubs. SSF4 is bad cause it continued the trends SF4 started. MVC3 is bad because it’s continuing the trend of scrubbiness in a game that USED to be hardcore. Capcom selling out = bad. Nobody is denying the fact that these new shitty games can be played at a competitive level…problem is that it’s no longer a testament to the game, it’s a testament to the players. I used to play marbles fanatically at one point in my childhood…doesn’t mean marbles is a top tier game. It’s fuckin garbage.

Hate is what keeps everyone serious playing SF. When you lose, you don’t feel the sting of missing knowledge. You feel the sting of your bruised ego after another person has defeated you. When you see someone’s salty face after they’ve lost a MM, it’s not an intellectual look, it’s an emotional expression (usually disgust, anger, embarrassment, etc.). Knowledge isn’t what’s kept me up at night many times in the past. SF is mind vs mind. It’s not a battle of knowledge, it’s a battle of wits, and when you’re outwitted, you can’t help but feel like shit.

I have no idea what this is about, all I gotta say is don’t make assumptions about ppl’s personalities based on mere gestures of “kindness” or fake humility. If you could hear what ur opponent is thinking about you during and after your matches, you’d probably be surprised.

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I’m done arguing about 4 in detail at this point, as I don’t want this topic to burn out of control and derail the London thread.

If you really want my opinion in detail, I could send you a pm.

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Honestly it all comes down to new age gaming. All games today are easy, that’s all that needs to be said. Doesn’t matter about the genre or the company or anything. They naturally just come easy. Anyone who disagrees with this hasn’t played enough old games or is just bad at games in general.

Sometimes there are exceptions like Demon’s Soul but even then their made with the main idea of “let’s kill the player” during creation.

Compare the original Metroid game to the new Wii one, original it was a giant maze that people made their own maps for so they can figure out where they are and where items are and you don’t have any idea where to go. This new one, the game provides you a map with very linear directions with a beacon telling you where to go next. And doors won’t open until you safe making sure you won’t lose much if you die. There are tons of examples in today’s gaming.

I like SF4 ya, but I know it is the easiest SF I’ve ever played since I’m pretty sure I’ve played most other ones because of Chris. Marvel vs Capcom 2 was like the first fighter I cared about and day 1 of 3 I can already tell this is easy. The sense of being used to the old ones progresses to any game. It only makes them better once they discover how easy the newer one is.

If anyone objects to today’s gaming, speak. If not, lets just stop lol.

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This is quite basic. Playing the player isn’t generally the best option. Say you’re in a tournament and have never played the guy you’re about to play? You play the MATCH UP first then try to figure out the player. Match ups are the most important part of becoming strong in sf. This is why what you preach (training room only) lab work is so key to many top players.

Josh is good because he HAS indeed gained knowledge of 4. He also has good fundamentals from past games, which transitioned over.

A battle of wits? Wits is intelligence…the intelligence you use to gain the knowledge necessary to win at all costs. “Playing it safe” is good and all, but you need to know quite a few specifics.

I’ll take a solid game plan over plain basic play any day of the week.

Also, i don’t really care about “new schoolers” or “old”. I consider everyone the same until proven otherwise.

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/facepalm

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I preached training room because I live in London and it was the only way I felt players here could improve. I’ve talked to Chris about this on MSN already. He knows I’m telling the truth when I say that I honestly don’t give a shit about training mode or matchups. I just said what I thought needed to be heard. The ONLY thing I care about is playing PEOPLE and figuring out how to beat them. People can be broken down into archetypes, and after you’ve played enough ppl, you just know what kind of player you’re facing and how to beat them. THIS is why top players are the best, not because they spend a million hours in training mode learning matchups (coincidentaly, Daigo has the same philosophy). Top players are good at reading players, and this is why they’re ALWAYS on top, REGARDLESS of the game. If knowledge and practice was so important, all the basement warriors would be amazing, cept that’s almost never the case. During the Wizards days, how often did I stay home and train? I would literally spend the whole fuckin day playing. I would get Burger King, LAY MY WHOPPER ON THE 3S CAB, and play. I stopped coming towards the end cause I didn’t feel there was any worthwhile comp left.

Josh’s knowledge of 4 is pathetic. Again, no offense to him, cause as I said, intricate knowledge of the game is totally overrated and has nothing to do with winning. Patience, intelligence (adaptation, strong analytical skills, etc.), basic but FUNDAMENTAL knowledge of the game and its characters (aka what 99% of ppl do in high level matches), reflexes, timing, picking the right character for the job, etc. are what truly matter.

You don’t need to know specifics to win…how do specifics help you beat Guile in SSF4? A smart Guile can just Sonic Boom, c. fierce and airthrow and make you shit your pants in frustration trying to get in on him. The intelligent thing to do is counter Guile with a character better suited to beat his ass without sweating a bucket load in the process. Look at any character in any game at a high level of play…you seem the same old shit done over and over. Matchup specific knowledge is one of the most overrated things in SF. It provides an excuse for losing (oh, I didn’t know the matchup) or it gives the illusion of progress, when focus should be going into analyzing players and their tendencies.

You used to have a Mike Tyson quote in your sig. It went: “Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.” Gameplans are bullshit. There’s no such thing as a gameplan in SF. The game is all about reading and adapting to your opponent. What works on one person has no chance in hell of working on another. Hence why you have to focus on the player, and not his character.

Lol everyone is not the same, and I know you don’t believe what you’re saying. I’m not some chump that discovered SRK yesterday. I’ve seen you play certain ppl and I know that you, like I, get nervous and scared, especially against prominent names in the community. This is only natural.

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Demon Souls would like to have a word with you, as would Dragon Age: Origins, STALKER, Burnout Paradice (yo that city is fucking hard to get around), SC2, I’d argue Halo:Reach and BFBC2 are hard when playing skilled opponents, The Witcher…

I can go on if you really like me too. I think the only game that is 100% scrubby and I hate with a passion is COD, IRON SIGHTS YO!

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Sooooooo… in other news.

Lasers.

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Pew pew.