I’ve seen Hagejin and most notably Snake Eyez @ Canada Cup Master Series, use this shenanigan. I think I calculated the shafted LPGH to be -14 on whiff, which puts it in line with whiff cr.MK into LP SPD. But what makes it hard, is that, hit confirms during footsies in the neutral game, where you can’t guarantee the opponent’s starting position - it is quite ambiguous to know whether it hits or not. Like 2 hit strings or 3 hit strings may whiff the LPGH.
But you ALWAYS go for the SPD, and not AS. In case they are mashing back dash or jump.
Snake Eyez used a good variation against Xian. Hit confirm xx whiff LPGH. Ultra 1!!!
The opponent’s counter to it, is too difficult in my opinion. Even though its 14 frames of whiff. You have no visual cues to work with it. You don’t know if it makes contact until the very last frames. Even though light poke xx LPGH is a true block string. You can’t be sure when to mash jump, on which string, to make use of the auto-block and jump away. And you don’t really want to stay in that position against Zangief to find out. Mashing reversal and back dash would always be an option.
Anyway, what about that ex gh forces stand buff? I think it’s pretty ridiculous now.
I get 1 ultra combo per match now, minimum.
Since I only ever need ex gh to go through fireballs, I catch myself NOT going through fireballs if I have like 3 bars of meter.
At that point I can just sit there and built meter with k lariat to build up that rfa threat.
Recently had a friend raging over the amount of red focus attacks I landed haha
Btw, any new Ideas about the Sagat Match since Master Series? There is a local sagat player giving me nightmares with his combination of occasional st.hk, cr.fierce and tigershots
(or should I just switch it with my Dhalsim?)
I think the EX Red Hand is a moot point. Just watch any match, and count the number of times, Zangief’s have won a round with RFC. It doesn’t correlate that using all 4 bars wins the round! Using it early, is a very large investment, that’s risky, because what if it doesn’t pay off? And you lose the round? Happens to Zangitan and Snake Eyez. And the sacrifice of reaction kara-EXGH, and light poke option select xx EXGH is far too great. Plus, more importantly, how do you build more meter when your sitting on MAX? Playing on MAX meter for a short time, you are losing a few EX bars right there!
I view that it is a more solid and viable strategy to use EXGH combos, light o/s xx EXGH and kara-EXGH, and if you can kill, or setup one mix-up for the kill, use the Red Focus Combo to win the round.
The +1 momentum from the EXGH is very threatening, kara-EXGH is very threatening from 60-70% of the screen, and light o/s xx EXGH is a MUST for almost every match up.
It is debateable whether you want to use trade Lariat, KKK Lariat or Far HP into EXGH, for 50 more damage, but a chance at a soft knockdown with a cross-up/cross-over mix-up. Depends on how well your opponent’s character can defend against the mix-up.
I’ve always wanted to write the guide to the Sagat matchup. Working on it. It’s hard because, you have to be patience, and you NEED great reactions, thus you need training.
But in USF4, it is much much much better.
[list]
[] High tigers don’t hit crouching, so you get a free pass at any high tiger with cr.MP (speed) or cr.HP (range). High shots are important to deter Zangief from jumping the low tigers
[] Tiger Uppercut xx FADC forward dash = -5 nerf or Tiger Uppercut has 4 frames more recovery. This means you can always use the faster LPGH on block, to go into AS or U1. It also means you can use a L2 FA into AS/HP SPD or U1 (but you have to block it point blank, and executive with 3 frames accuracy to get the L2 FA. So, instead of taking 220 from the AS, you can take 296 from the L2 FA into AS - which better your odds.
[] The improved MPGH can banish and close distance against the tigers.
[] The close standing LK being special cancellable. Useful. Because now, Zangief has an inclose target combo, chainable and special cancellable into Lariat. Makes for target combo into KKK Lariat. EXGH possible. This is a very strong hit confirm, with very specific close spacing, from either SPD-MPGH, but you have to take a step forward, or after a jump in. It gives superior positioning than a combo into LPGH.
[*] Plus the almighty EXGH forces stand on hit. Purely for the round winning RFC[/list]
I can’t really condense it down into one post. So I’ll just some up key knowledge, and key skills you need to fight Sagat. Message me, for specific advice. Good luck.
Was anyone watching Final Round 18 when Snake Eyez played Bon-Chan? I was there in the room and the entire experience almost brought me to tears. At first, the room was absolutely in despair when snake was getting beat down in the sagat/gief matchup, but as he went to character select, many voices started shouting.
I was part of the group calling out for oni, but Filipino man who was close to the stage was adamantly shouting for Evil ryu. And then it happened.
The point of this is, in USF4, can we gief mains just stop killing ourselves by soldiering through some of the hardest matchups a character has to deal with in sf4 and just run a strong secondary?
I’m not saying we should just get Into the mindset of constantly reaching for our pocket character whenever a 6-4 disadvantaged matchup comes at us in a tourney, but, when you’re playing against someone that is skill-wise equal or greater to you, wouldn’t you like to even up the odds even if by a marginal amount?
I won’t post my thoughts about counter picking. But …
I believe Bonchan to have the advantage in the Sagat-Evil Ryu match up. Because of knowledge, experience and execution. He should definitely, have been able to edge out Snake Eyez - for the later’s lack of combined Sagat-Evil Ryu knowledge. (It could also be that Snake Eyez’s possess amazing learning potential - quality over quantity over a shorter time period)
But this game, much like poker, is decided on the reads, and adaptation. The fact that Snake Eyez, is possibly going in as the underdog in execution and knowledge, is a testament, to how good his adaptation and reads are. Which at the end of the day, wins games.
I expect much better from Bonchan. Perhaps he is polarized from the constant beatings with Daigo, thinking he’s fighting Daigo.
Not to make excuses for Bonchan but if they played again and Snake picked E.Ryu he would get bodied bad imo. I think Bonchan just got mentally screwed with that pick and was completely shocked. Just watch the match and it’s pretty obvious. Kinda like the Ryu pick against Daigo at the Red Bull this weekend. Bonchan won at the character select cause Daigo just never expected it.
As far as Gief goes, I know some here still think he’s a good character but I think most have no idea how worse he got in this patch. The jab gh change was devastating imo and every mu got worse and some got way worse like Akuma for example. I think it’s just sad what they did to him.
I think you guys are missing the point… If Snake Eyez had stayed on Gief against Bonchan he was going to lose and wouldn’t have made it into top 8.At a tournament it’s not about “if player x were to play him again he’d win” , its about getting those 2-3 wins whatever way possible and not getting eliminated. Snake picking evil ryu was a great mental attack and he used that to his advantage. People hardly expect gief mains to switch characters since the majority of us are too hard-headed/loyal, so bonchan never calculated that possibility. If that’s what it takes to get to top 8, would you not like to have that option in your pocket?
Regardless of the nerfs Gief has gotten, Zangief is still a strong fighter when used intelligently. So far when I go to tournaments the only gief’s I’ve ever met either suck ( like, they don’t AA lariat, know how to play the neutral game, and just die if the opponent doesn’t let them in for free), or I just run into Snake Eyez.
I’m not saying that using gief isn’t hard by any amount. My local scene that I train with has nothing but people that main the most aggravating matchups for gief (chun-li,dhalsim,e Honda, sagat, rose, gouken) and then there are at least two people that have picked up characters solely for fighting me. On top of that, i’ve helped them all learn the ins and outs of the gief matchup so i cant scrub out on them, forcing me to get honest wins.Yet, I still beat them all hard and have won every single local tournament here. The gouken main was one of the first to start talking trash when the Greenhand nerf dropped and it just drove me to up my game even further to ensure he never beats me.
It’s just not in my nature to be down on my character, because, zangief is fun no matter what, and Snake Eyez constantly shows what good gief gameplay is : being excessively smarter than your opponent, making calculated gambles, and being patient.
Well the game has gone the way that if you don’t have a pocket character you are pretty screwed when you go against a tough MU. As it stands if Snake Eyez wants use E. Ryu he would need to change his style of play they quickly figured out he plays him like Gief and he has been punished for it. So I agree with @scratchback that if Bonchan would face him again he would bop him.
NVM: I saw. Please dont try to educate players who are better than you on how good a character is when you are nowhere near its potential as a character. You dont whiffpunish, you dont use buffers. Your main tactics are j.mk, s.rh j.hp and wakeup Lariat.
Zangief is still STRONG, but he has 4-5 matchups that you are very unlikely to win if the opponent is on your same level. And a few more that are really hard.
(and in v.103 You shouldnt loose to Rose, E. Honda, Rose or GOuken matchups you listed as hard back then, which clearly werent.)
Capcom has spoken about Teleport (F, D, DF + LP) - SPD.
LPGH was too good. There was no way to keep Zangief out.
The EXGH forcing stand is quite AMAZING. Before then, we had to beg these opponent’s to STAND.
For example:
Zangief: Comrades. Please stand up for my EXGH - Red Focus Combo.
Chun Li: NO!
Ryu: NO! I like to do crouching MK
Sagat: NO!!! I will ONLY do low Tiger
Zangief: I’ll be your friend! Please stand up comrade.
Zangief: I have this AMAZING damaging Red Focus Combo, but I can’t land it, because they don’t Stand Up!
You see friends, the problem is, you need 4 EX bars to do magic. But if you use ONE EX bar as an o/s counter poke and they happen to be crouching. There goes your ONE AND ONLY chance.
The EXGH forcing stand, means you will land the Red Focus Combo much more frequently. And if you play smartly, and use it, WHEN IT MATTERS, that is to WIN ROUNDS. You can secure a round with an o/s counter poke or whiff punish for 400 to 600 damage (which includes the follow up mix-up). The EX Red Hand is your comeback!
You just have to offset the meter issue, and play more patiently, constantly building meter. For example, keeping them alive long enough for you to build more EX.
If Snake Eyez really wanted to win, he should main another character altogether. It would be much easier, according to general consensus, but probably not as fun OVERALL. Similarly, Bonchan should have went straight to Dhalsim or Vega, after losing against Snake Eyezs Evil Ryu. And behold, he would make top 8. “Since its about getting those 2-3 wins whatever way possible and not getting eliminated.” Sorry to paraphrase you, buddy, but the statement is very true and GOLD. Doesn’t matter whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning’s winning.
The moral to the story is, be like Infiltration or Sako, and main 4 characters for the win. Leave the funky and hard stuff to those Sea Captains willing to go down with the ship, so to speak.
I don’t see it as an issue, if you go to Evil Ryu or Oni, I expect your opponent to be prepared. They would rather play you, than a specialist Evil Ryu or Oni.
Veggey, what is your problem? That’s no way to talk to people. I don’t know what video you saw of me (EDIT* I know which ones you saw. Those are local sets at my scene. I use basic-to-scrubby stuff on them because I know it works on those people. Obviously these are not tactics i rely upon in a real tournament) but I can assure you that I know/utilize the buffers as well as whiff punish.
Don’t be an asshole just because someone doesn’t share the same pessimistic views.
And why do you feel that rose, e Honda, and gouken were never hard matchups for gief? i could maybe buy pre-patch gouken, but…Rather than talk down to me, educate me in the matchup, since I want to become a player of high skill.
Just watched Snake Eyez Evil Ryu get bodied vs Infiltration Akuma - 2015 RedBull Kumite.
Snake needs to use an arcade stick, with all its advantages.
It’s just looks too hard to kara, option select and plink using multiple buttons on pad. For example: Double Plink: MP~LP+LK. Evil needs those ONE frame links, that’s just his nature.
I was talking down on you, because you where talking down on us/me in your first post. You entered basically saying, we think gief is bad now, because we dont think when we play.
Rose is a hard matchup for gief because of two things. Her sweep, and MP-Fireball trap U1(guaranteed almost.) and in v.103 Zangief could punish sweep on block with lp-gh(at 1-85% of the range), and WHIFFPUNISH sweep on WHIFF with LP-GH on reaction. Now that thoose options are gone, she really dominates the ground game. With a super long sweep. that you cant stuff, and is very hard to whiffpunish because you need to walk forward after it whiffing before using s.lk and often you end up walking in to the sweep instead xD Its easy in training room, but hard in match for some reason.
Honda headbuts could all be punished on Block in v.103 with LP-GH. So he was forced to play nj.hp and footsies Only, no lifelead by doing random headbuts.
Gouken, I think goukens overrated as a bad match for gief. Hes zoning is goods, but hes walkspeed make hes footsies bad against Gief.
I’m sorry if I came off like that to you all.I know you guys definitely think when playing (there’s no other way to win at high level with gief), but I just get very put off by the air of defeat in this forum. I’ve read through these forums for a long time ever since learning gief, and I know the ups-and (much more numerous) downs the character has had. I really REALLY enjoy playing zangief, and no matter who I play against or what matchup it is, I try to take it on with extreme confidence.
I agree with the e Honda random headbutt thing. Just realized that change makes that matchup harder. I lost to a Honda at final round last month and the last tournament I went to was before the patch. I played against a Honda at the other tournament (Texas) and it was honestly pretty easy because of the lp gh punish tool.
As for the rose matchup, have you experimented with the new lp gh against her fireball trap U1? I used to eat it constantly against a local rose I practice with before the patch, but now with new lp gh, there’s a certain spacing where as long as gief does green hand to negate the fireball anywhere but full-screen-ish, rose’s U1 won’t reach in time. The rose player could also just be messing up his timing, idk, I need to test it in training mode with him.
Her sweep though, yea, I hate it. Either gief just tries to catch her pattern with a focus dash up spd, or just blocks it every time and gets pushed out.
When I first started playing Zangief, I loved watching Itazan. But when I understood the game more , I realised that Itazan was a weaker Zangief in terms of footsies. He has good mix-ups though.
To be honest there’s things Itazan isn’t doing in the match up. Where Hagejin, Cantona, and Snake Eyez would make a difference.
Against Adon’s pokes:
Standing LP xx LPGH/EXGH o/s
Crouching LP xx LPGH/EXGH o/s
Standing LP is superior/safer to the Standing MP
Occasional neutral or back jump HP to whiff punish the Jaguar Kick
E.Ryu and Guile are favorable to Gief now? Uh I completely disagree but ok. Gief has many tough mu’s now imo but the obvious ones are Sagat, Chun, Akuma, Fuerte, and a lot more.
