He did lose patience I mean who wouldn’t after you are being routed and eating st. HK for a good portion of the match he just stared to throw GH just to get in. As choppy as the stream was it was noticeable. He basically couldn’t get in unless he had the meter and even then it was hoping he would throw the FB, one round he actually got lucky that Xaiohai messed up the Kara DP.
There’s nothing to evaluate about the match. This mu is bad and it’s always been bad. We know why it’s bad and with Gief worse now it’s even harder which is just sad. Also Xiaohai is a way better player than Sanford and Ryan Hart so mentioning those two is a mute point even though he doesn’t even main Sagat. Plus Snake beat those two pre patch.
How much does the patch really affect the Sagat matchup, though? Gief never really got a lot of whiff punishes on him, and even when he does, that MU is hard enough that I think most Gief’s would opt to use EXGH instead of LP to get the +1 after. And you can’t let Sagat get away with fireballs at all so stocking full super was never much of an option anyway IMO. Also, I haven’t tested it, but Sagat’s backdash is horrible, so Gief may still be able to OS it with LPGH.
I think the MU is still pretty bad, but unless he lost his OS on Sagat’s backdash I don’t think it got worse with the patch.
^ The fact that it’s harder for Gief to get in and stay in makes the match harder. It makes literally every match harder by default.
Yeah that’s basically how I feel too. We have way less mobility now so by default every character has it a little easier now against Gief. Also before we would be right in there face after a jab.gh combo so they had to think. Now with no meter they basically have nothing to fear after a jab.gh combo. Did the Sagat mu get any easier for us? I certainly don’t think so. To me it got slightly worse along with every other mu but maybe thats just me.
Evansgambit has one point though in his last post. Should we use EXGH more often and forget about the red focus combo in matches?
Think about it… in current matches, everyone is going out of their way to attempt to capitalize on the sudden burst damage the EXGH red focus combos can do. To get a full 4 stocks of meter to do it, we are forced to play the entire match without using meter, and the best way to do it is to end our bnbs and whiffpunishes with lp GH.
But with the current nerf, this pretty much halts all momentum gained due to the ridiculous pushback. If we were to forget about the possibility to connect a red focus combo in return of potential chances to continue pressure up close using EXGH, would we be better off?
The sad thing about it all they needed to do was fix it so that red focus hit crouchers so to make it more viable (which is what they wanted) there was no need to nerf. In other words they took a simple fix and added a one sided trade for it.
HUGE. Actually. The original over the top LPGH could:
- Teleport LPGH into LP SPD. A favourite of some players, noobs or skilled alike. Feel free to substitute far MP, U2, far HK in place of LP SPD. But the important thing is the teleport!
- Naked Whiff punish Sagat far HK, or st.LP xx LPGH o/s from inside Sagat’s far HK range
- Reaction max range jumping HP Superman into LPGH against Sagat’s low tiger. Now in 1.04 if you aim for his crouching palm, and you connect the Superman, you get no follow up at max range. Nothing reaches fast enough, LPGH range is too short, and EXGH is too slow to connect.
- Max 5 string hit confirm reduced to 4, to combo the LPGH. So you have to tick SPD on the zero, first, second hit, and you lose the third hit as you need the last 2 strings to hit confirm LPGH, in case they jump out.
- The LPGH post positioning meant that the threat of U1 was RELEVANT. Sagat had to respect that. And you could leverage that, to force him to take evasion action, punish his escape option. I mean, who wants to be a sitting duck against Ultimate Atomic Buster, its a mathematically unfavourable position to be in for too long. Sooner or later, reality catches up to you. Similarly, you could guess correctly every LPGH game, for the win. A follow up LPGH catches back dash, beats neutral jump, as you cross under and Lariat or AS them. It is also safe from back jump, with the threat of LP SPD on their landing, or you could PPP Lariat their jump back defence. Then you got EX SPD, PPP, KKK Lariat to beat combos. Plus, the threat of AS if they were a frame off. You could probably walk forward and far HK if they jump.
- To sum it up, you could play the LPGH game and end up with these powerful outcomes: soft knockdown from a follow up LPGH into a cross-up play. AS or EX AS knockdown. Soft knockdown from PPP Lariat or trade with Tiger Uppercut, as your more favourable outcomes.
There is no denying that the value of four separate EXGH’s, is more powerful than the 4 bars used for EX Red Hand Combo. By far the best use of meter management vs Sagat is to EXGH Tiger shots. Not even for trade PPP Lariat into EXGH. It is debatable whether that EX bar could be used for o/s light poke xx EXGH, because you could have always used a meterless whiff punisher in its place.
And to play without using EXGH, would require a very high level of skill, and an even higher level of patience. Think about it, you FA absorb forward dash the first tiger shot, then FA absorb forward dash the next, normally you can EXGH the third. But if your frugal about EX meter, your options are limited.
In AE2012, the break even rate of blocking tiger shots vs landing EXGH was under 13 to 1. So that meant, that if you blocked 13 tiger shots (hopefully all low) and you landed 2 hits of the ONE EXGH, you would be AHEAD in damage. Now if you remove the EXGH, from the match. I don’t really know what to think? How would you be able to equalise on the chip damage?
I see the EX Red Hand as strictly a luxury finishing move, that allows you to end rounds and matches with a bang. Not the ENTIRE objective of your game plan. If you have it, you use it there and then, but your not letting them off the hook, and not using regular EXGH.
in v.103 I saw at the very END of the patch, that Snakeeyez and Itabashi decided to play HAM in that matchup. They just did raw crazy shit whenever they where close, and used the LPGH to create immense pressure. In v.104 Sagat can breath even more safely than in AE2012, because you dont need to look out to punish the LP-GH anymore.
in AEv.2012 meeting a Zangief in a tournament, was a Jackpot for any decent player. If you arent for some insane reason SUPER afraid of SPDs, Playing Zangief was seriously tough. And its pretty much back to the same now, People who constantly try to escape SPDs, will be easy to beat. But other players, who understand the risk gief takes when SPDing, will eat a few more spds, but in general less damage will be taken. And once they get out, Gief will be as easy to beat, as he was in v.2012. Because you dont need to respect LP-GH, you dont need to use X% of your focus to look for raw-GHs anymore, and you can focus 50% on footsies, and 50% on jumpins.
For Sagat, the matchup is easier than most Sagats try to make it. BAsically ALL you need to do, is throw a couple of fireballs, to get the chip lifelead. Wait for gief to be in range for s.hk, and then PRESS s.hk. If Zangief is IN range for S.HK, there is NOTHING Zangief can do to counter that Poke ASIDES from Lariat. And the punish on LARIAT is reactional, vs. a GUESS on a s.hk.
Sagat vs. Zangief has always been impossible to win if the Sagat understands that its not a game about throwing fireballs all day, its about getting a lifelead, and then waiting for gief to get close, and then s.hk s.hk, rince, repeat.
Imo Zangief in this version is back to having terribly anoying matchups, and hes severly weakened in general. And the only part of the Zangief nerfs/changes that I feel where legit, where the pushback on hit. It benefitted Zangief vs. Grapplers, and it would give other people breathing room that didnt enjoy the closeUP-matchup!
Imo this Edition proves that if you are friends with someone in CapCom that has some power, you can change the game to benefit in your tournament-gameplay. And how can we as players take a game seriously competative, if some players get to whine and cry about a character until he gets nerfed, because they are highLevel. And that they are friends with someone important at capcom? Im disgusted.
Veggey, I completely agree with everything you said. Especially the part about having “friends” at Capcom. I don’t care what anyone says, Gief is severely weakened now and every mu is worse but we just have to deal with it just like in the past.
Veggey, your a handsome player. You need to put some gel in your hair. And wine and dine these important friends at Capcom. $500,000 for Capcom Cup Pro Tour, will make people do just about anything. 
I wonder what’s the real reasoning about this nerfs… I mean wouldn’t be better for street fighter and the community as a whole to make each character even balanced with the rest and accessible to new comers so that in high level matches the real factor for a win is based on the players skill instead of the characters specs? Are they really ruining character on purpose? anyway.
i have payed a little bit and i gotta say, banishing projectiles looks bad ass but is a useless move because some 4 out of 5 times when i banished a projectile i got hit by a second one so yeah, don’t spend your time banishing projectiles unless you’re at the other side of the screen. i also noticed that many are saying that the 5 hit comb with lpgh finisher doesn’t work anymore but I disagree; I guess it depends on the distance where you start the combo(if you want the lpgh to hit) because I been able to pull it out only when gief is really near to the opponent, kinda Fspd distance from your opponent, any farther than that and lpgh will whiff. now i have a question, thanks to the push back of lpgh on hit, the opponent is pushed just too far for spd or for pokes with crlp and crlk so what would be the next step after a lpgh that hits, block?
They change “extreme” characters like Sim and Grapplers because they are scrub killers and make training mode heroes and idiotic auopilot players like Maximilian think outside the box. And stupid people hate thinking outside the box. So they complain. And Capcom doesn’t really care about balance but more about selling as much copies of a game as possible which means pissing off as few people as possible.
Were Mike and UltraDavid watching the same match? This is not a 5-5 mu I’m sorry wow.
I feel, Snake Eyez may have underestimated the match up. Convincingly beating Sanford and Ryan Hart, will do that to you.
Although the score was 7-0, each round and each match was close. It looked very even, and very close, with Xiaohai just edging Snake Eyez out at key moments. The score line did not accurately reflect the match.
In a reversal of roles, it seems as though Xiaohai was more patience than Snake Eyez, and played more reactive to Snake’s Active play. Snake Eyez played more scared, in terms of mix-ups. For example, not pulling the trigger by blocking instead of going for the combo or SPD. Xiaohai was challenging every EXGH as though he was at frame advantage.
If I find the time, I’m going to go over the entire match.
But some key points to note, where Snake Eyez lost damage:
-
Abuse of the LPGH. This move got him killed. With its lesser range, the teleport surprise factor drops. Opponents are looking out to whiff punish this move. Xiaohai had it done pat, with cr.LP xx Tiger Uppercut FADC U1. He also tagged the LPGH with Sagat’s Far HK. Countless times, he would secure the victory off this whiff punish! With 22 frames of whiff after the active potion of the LPGH, you become a moving target.
-
Losing damage from Tiger Shots where he should not have, by blocking. These are either mistimed LPGH’s or execution errors of FA absorb forward dashes. There were countless of these. Hopefully Snake re-adjusts and learns the range of the LPGH and MPGH banishes.
-
Using SPD-LPGH which is completely ineffective as you have ZERO threats after. Snake needs to use SPD-MPGH or SPD-HK~LPGH (kara) so you can still LP SPD them on their wake up, or especially against Sagat’s slower wakeup and taller hurtbox, SPD-Forward Jump/Jumping HP.
-
Took too many risky approaches, jumps, far cr.HK, far HK, LPGH, cr.MK was whiff punished by Xiaohai’s cr.LP xx Low Tiger xx EX FADC xx dash. cr.MP xx Tiger Uppercut.
-
Too many random EXGH EX FADC back dash on block. 3 EX bars right there. Either block or get hit by the tiger shot is a better option, EX meter is too valuable to burn 3 bars on a guess.
Xiaohai’s whiff punishing was spot on:
- LPGH
- cr.MK
- far. cr.HK
- far HK
You name it, Xiaohai, whiff punished everything. The magic of Sagat’s cr.LP is such a good footsie tool. cr.LP has comparatively great range for its speed as a 3 framer. Single handed took down LPGH, cr.MK, far HK…
There were some things I feelt, Snake Eyez could have improved on or added to his gameplay:
- Whiff punishing of Sagat’s st.HK. He let too many go for free
- kara EXGH tiger shots more or at least threaten it more
- Jump HP or MK the low tiger shot or tiger shots. Xiaohai mostly went low. In fact ALWAYS went low. If you show him a few jump in combos, you’ll see more high tiger shots.
- Go for the SPD after EXGH or LPGH. Xiaohai did not respect the follow up to any of the GH, as he knows Snake doesn’t SPD.
- Pick Ultra 2 because of the threat factor. I feel Ultra 1 has little utility.
Against whiff punishing machines, like Xiaohai and Japanese players, Snake has to be more patience, games need to go down to the timer. I feelt he threw out too much heavy firepower, and paid the price in this matchup. Xiaohai just out patience him, waited, blocked and punished.
Wow, that’s the range of GH now? Next patch he’ll be standing in place.
I admit that fireball negation looks slightly more practical than I thought, but that’s not really saying much. Still looks very gimmicky and both Xiohai and Daigo figured it out pretty quick and punished him a lot for it.
As I thought, the pushback on LPGH is a mutual benefit. There were times where Snake really needed the pressure after a LPGH but couldn’t get it, but there were other times where it was blocked but he was too far to be punished. I actually sort of like this change.
LPGH still works decently well in footsies. Didn’t see him whiff in the Xiaohai set. Having reduced OS potential really hurt him tho and it looks like Gief is back to making hard reads in order to exert wakeup pressure (which I don’t really disagree with TBH).
I can’t really make an accurate assessment on how good he is/isn’t until we see more matches, but I have to say that he doesn’t look as bad as I thought. But he still looks a lot worse than the previous version, especially in the matchups he already struggled in, which is very disappointing.
I think Snake Eyez wasn’t prepared for the Sagat match up. Not sure if he got to know in advance the characters he fights. But you could pretty much guess the line-up, evil ryu, el fuerte, rose, balrog, evil ryu, yun, gen. Except Xiaohai was the wildcard.
There were a lot of things, he could have done better in the match-up. And I suspect in the runback against Xiaohai, that Snake would lift his game. It wouldn’t surprise me, if he took it. Because thats the kind of player Snake is, he’s highly dedicated, and comes right back. But Xiaohai might not even use Sagat!
Against Sagat, after SPD-MPGH, he’s +3
*Frame data says so, Sagat wakeups 1 frame later, and you can test it via SPD-MPGH-regular throw. The throw whiffs, players are un-throwable for 2 frames after wake up. The throw grabs on frames 3 and 4 of its animation. If he’s +2 after SPD-MPGH then regular throw would connect on its 4th animation frame.
Zangief still has access to two viable option selects, which work better as he’s point blank.
-
cr.LP xx (far cr.HK) cr.LP chained o/s
-
cr.LP (far HK o/s) st.LK. st.LK xx LPGH - need to retest this one, not sure if you get close st.lk which is just as good, as you can special cancel into KKK Lariat or LPGH
Hit confirm combos into KKK Lariat, would be something worthwhile to strive for in the Sagat match-up. Need to test if it hits couching Sagats. The soft knockdown and cross up opportunities would be something to look into.
Nah, I somewhat disagree. I think fireball negation is very possible. I’m an amateur, and even I can do it from 3/4 screen with MPGH to a fairly consistent level, against any speed high or low tiger. Just have to learn the spacing, buffer in anticipation, and react to the audio cue “Tiger”. The goal is to appear roughly where the tiger shot originates on screen, so you don’t have to worry about the various travel speeds. After taking into account MPGH recovery and hitstop from the projectile banish. You should be about even or slightly negative with Sagat’s recovery, but definitely in time to block far HK or Tiger Uppercut.
HPGH offers much better banish ability as it has more projectile invincible frames, plus it has more range. It’s 2 frames slower than MPGH, but given that Sagat’s tigers are laggy as. It would seem very viable, once you learn the range. Haven’t tested it yet.
In terms, of the pressure after LPGH. Snake Eyez can keep his strings short, so he can LP SPD after the LPGH, or use the 4 or 5 hit string, and move them to the corner quicker.
I think if Snake Eyez makes a few adjustments, he’s good to go. Reduce the free damage he gives to Xiaohai. Reduce the odds by not using or whiffing the heavy firepower. Yes, Xiaohai is option selecting against those, with Sagat’s cr.LP xx Low Tiger xx FADC etc. Sticking with the safe fundamentals: regular throw, lights, far MP, and occasional LP SPD. In my opinion, he needs to use Ultra 2 and check Sagat more with far st.LK. And he needs to get back to his old patient, content to block 13 tiger shot, EVO14 self.