sigh
I don’t need to, because I play one of the 18 or so characters in the game who can just block the first hit and duck the rest.
im saying in general. replying to you because you and a lot of other people keep thinking that lariat is so broken and unpunishable by like EVERYONE except shotos and sagat.
Actually, Guile can make quite a few mistakes against Gief. I actually love playing against him. The critical thing is to not make the big mistake which is letting him get in SPD range (not including a blocked green hand). Maybe it’s just your play style, but I find what helps with this is to not punish his lariats with just FKs. Pokes, or Poke into FK, or even a well timed SB sometimes.
Same when he whiffs SPD. A well, timed crossup isn’t punishable by SPD (although I wouldn’t recommend doing it often. I personally just do it just to screw with them psychologically) , when followed by jab and short block string which isn’t too hard to connect as well.
Yeah. I hate Ryu’s SRK-> Ultra as well, But I think the main reason is because we main Guile and we have no way to Link anything into ultra (at least not consistently and not doing the full damage). I 2nd Cammy, and I’m JUST starting Rufus. Having even a tough ___ into ultra makes this way more manageable. Ono said that Guile not having that goes into ultra is a problem. But this is about changes/wishlist to Gief, so lets keep it that way. (I know it’s hypocritical of me, but I tried to keep it brief, but thoughts keep coming up while I’m writing, but I’ll stop here to stay on topic.)
For my characters, I think Gief’s lariat is ok. But judging by the waves of people Spamming Lariats on ST since SF4 came out (Good players who used to have solid Gief play too). And description I’ve read here, tells me that it does need a bit of tweaking. I would personally like It how it was in ST because it was so intuitive that way, and nothing was wonky so I’d support the change for that reason. As for balancing, It’s probably true that most characters who have problems with lariat are most likely going to get buffs which will help handle it anyway.
And air grab for Gief would just be waay to strong. Unless you can tech it. Gief does a good enough job keeping people in corners with just his pokes. He doesn’t need a strong move or a knockdown.
And another side note about 09’ers-- Many people (not all) who complain about you are just as bad as the people they are complaining about themselves. The rest of us, just don’t like the direction the attitude towards strategy and competition is heading. It might be inevitable, and if this continues, we’ll be outnumbered. We’ll then be the outcasts, but we can still have our opinion and state it. It really has nothing to do with you being new. It’s just an over generalization people make with the attitudes of new players… … and then there are the jerks…
And with the rep? I couldn’t care less if my bar becomes completely red or completely green. I do plan on buying premium since my student loans came in. But it certainly isn’t for the rep. It’s so I can support the SRK site and community. But hey, If people who wouldn’t donate normally care enough about rep to fund the site for it, by all means. If it works it works. – Just like the attitude most of the pre-09’ers have with competition and strategy. You play to win and to get better. No mercy.
The lariat is probably one of the most overreacted-to moves in the history of Street Fighter. Yeah, it’s really good, but it’s not even really why Zangief is still high tier at high levels. With strong players, it’s more of a situation, matchup-dependent thing. I occasionally use lariat in expectation of a limb or a roundhouse from some characters, at a certain range against some characters (like Sagat) in some situations, to get through fireballs, as an antiair, and to chip kill. Does that strike anyone as a huge problem? I don’t really see why it would, especially considering that each of those uses can get beaten by smart play by the opponent.
Yeah, some moves lose to lariat, even some ultras. But again, is that important? It’s not just lariat that beats ultras; all non-instant uncomboed ultras in the game lose to lots of things, including any of ex hand, focusing, dragon punches, grabs, jumps, cetera, and oh yeah, blocking.
Straight up, for no one is it unbeatable unless I do it at the right range in the right situation against the right characters, but… again, why is it a problem that I get that kind of payoff for my use of superior spacing, timing, and matchup knowledge? This nonsense that there’s a “lariat trap” is 100% retarded; if you let me keep doing lariat to you without punishing me, then that’s entirely your own fault. I understand that it’s hard to time a punishment for it online, but, man, I really don’t want to see the game designed around online or low-level play.
Now even though I don’t think it’s a problem, I do think it could be a little smarter. Because I don’t think Gief should have such good defense, I’d like to see punch lariat’s antiair hitbox shrink just a bit. It should still antiair certain jump-ins, like regular ones, but its anti-crossup hitbox doesn’t need to be so good (especially with such easy side-switching for moves like SF4 has). I think I’d nerf its hitting hitbox at Gief’s back shoulder to do this. I also don’t think kick lariat has to have such a strong hitting hitbox everywhere, and I don’t think hit at the ground at all; after all, it’s already invincible there. To make up for nerfing its overall hitbox and having it not hit at the ground, I’d like to see it move around a little faster horizontally.
I think fundamentally the problem is that people don’t want to have to deal with playing against a good grappler because he forces them to play differently. Of course every opponent forces you to play differently, for example you have to play differently against fireball v non-fireball characters or characters with dps v characters without dps etc, but for whatever reason people seem to think that the playstyle a good grappler user can force on his opponent seems to be super bothersome. I suggest everyone just get used to this, because I don’t expect Gief or Hawk (or that mysterious rumored Arab wrestler, assuming he’s real) to be bad.
werd Dave. . .
Whether or not it gets nerfed there will be lots of complaining to be delt with. But really though how many real good giefs are online anyway??? I’m asking that in all seriousness here. Yeah I don’t think the Hawkster and Geifster will be bad at all. We’ll see when it comes out.
Haha maaan, I just read this whole thread. Ouch.
I don’t usually try to play the mean card, but straight up, all of you guys who are complaining about lariat are not good Street Fighter 4 players. That’s fine, if you like playing casually, totally fine obviously. But realize that that means that you’re susceptible to getting beaten by things you don’t know the counters to; the fact that you don’t know the counters doesn’t mean they’re not there.
I mean someone even said that the lariat is so good that Gief can depend on it more than his normals. That’s crazy. Whiffing a lariat should earn me a trip to Combo City, and if you’re not buying Gief a ticket to Combo City for whiffing lariat, then you’re not even reasonably good at this game. Punish it from range with some grounded attack or certain correctly-timed/placed jump-ins! Dash back and do a ranged punishment from there! Wait for it to end and punish the recovery! Crouch under the first hit and hit him before the lariat finishes if your character can do that (most can)! Lots of characters can even stuff the lariat’s startup with normal attacks. Ok? Throwing out lariat is a risky move. Almost every character can take between 15 and 50% of Gief’s life for putting out a bad lariat. Why aren’t you guys doing this?
I mean DevilJin, really, you’re complaining about lariat as Viper? Viper has a couple jumping attacks that beat lariat if well-placed; seismo fakes can bait lariats leading to punishment by a real seismo into super jump into combo or even a jump/normal into combo; lariats can be baited by faking a jump that would hit Gief and then burning kicking away and using seismo to punish the lariat. When I use a poor lariat against Victoly or Combofiend or Ken I or whoever, they take off a minimum 20% of my life and sometimes up to a full 50% combo into ultra. Ok? This move is extremely not free.
fyi ultradavid i agree that lariat isnt all its cut out to be but its a move thats really frustrating for low-mid level players to punish properly, especially with some characters, and its clear that its a move that has a definite risk associated with it (similar to a shoryuken). which is why i believe it should be easier to punish, but not necessarily nerfed in strength (hell i think K lariat should have startup invincibility to projectiles…)
at least with other high priority startup moves, 95% of the time, they have a very large and clear to understand vulnerability window you can exploit, lariat, not so much. you get a pretty small window after that last spin.
to summarize: at low level play SPINNY MOVE OF SPAM 3P BUTTON is really hard to deal with, changing how easy it is to punish wouldnt make a huge different at higher levels of play (some characters MIGHT get a stronger punish…).
**Actually, Guile can make quite a few mistakes against Gief. **
Nah, 'cos a mistake will result in knockdown and then it’s crossup city to knockdown to crossup to repeat. Sometimes you get lucky and the fk beats the crossup, but the gist of it is that you might as well just flip a coin.
Earlier i went to practice and one of the only characters i remember lariat beating is feilong, but even his jumping roundhouse can beat it very reliably. How many people actually went to practice to find the weakness of moves that cause you trouble? Somehow i don’t think there are that many feilong players in here.
The 09 thing seems to be a substitute for a slow poster who has no real argument. Hell the bad rep i have is from suggesting low tier characters get buffs, saying i created an account just for guile, and saying gief could probably down fuerte pretty good, so i guess they can cry more.
The chip damage thing i just can’t get over though…i mean it does more damage on chip than some of my moves do when they hit, and i’ve only got two. In my opinion a wrestler like zangief needs chipping damage like boxer needs a command throw. If you have a real argument for why this move should do so much chip damage i’m all ears, but that’s about the only aspect of this move that i can agree needs some serious thought.
Hitting low is “meh”. I mean sure it doesn’t make alot of sense thematically, but is it really overpowered? Zangief just seems so hit and miss to me, even using guile. It’s either he beats me (usually not that badly) or he gets absolutely destroyed, and i’ll get buffs next game so why does this guy need a nerf for something that’s not troubling me anyways, and is barely troubling anyone else who put in even the slightest effort?
If this move is so abusable, and we know that most people aren’t playing to lose, the only question that matters is “where is the red army?” I should see this guy constantly if he’s that easy to win with because of one move.
Fei Long has a zillion ways to beat lariat. Just because it works against the CPU in hard survival mode doesn’t mean Fei Long loses to lariat for free.
He can rekka any blocked lariat, he can rekka in the middle of a lariat if he times it right (better to just wait for recovery), he can cr.HP, and if he blocks the first two hits of a PPP lariat, he can ultra. He can probably even ultra in other situations, depending on the spacing. He can get a free jump-in combo if he knows his spacing.
Even if you suck as Fei, wait for lariat to finish and rekka, or cr.HP.
I do agree that there are certain hitbox properties of the lariat that need to be addressed, though. Namely, hitting so low.
Zangief thrives in a lag filled enviorment.
In the case of lag, I’d rather just see better netcode than having the game developers try to balance the characters to accomodate lag…
I’m don’t think Gief is that strong. Infact I was supporting your main claim, restating what you’ve already stated to me isn’t going to do anything. The little nitpick I had is that you make it seem like Guile Vs Gief is harder than it is. (and that point was again, contradicting your main point)… We’re on the same side here! =/
And when you say Guile can’t make mistakes cuz a mistake will result in a knockdown. No, that’s just not true in all cases. and if you avoid the “big” mistake (which I said in my earlier post) of letting him get in SPD range without a green hand or a poke/ block string ready, There’s again, quite a few mistakes you can make that isn’t game ending. The key is to just not be stupid and also lay off the flashkicks just a bit when punishing lariats.
Lariat,EX greenhand, or combos are really what’s going to knock you down, this is common knowledge in the guile forum. A gief that knows the macthup will try to knock you down ASAP because he knows that anything less and you’ll just continue to zone the crap out of him and beat him
This is offtopic, so if you disagree with what i’ve said go to the guile matchups forum and discuss it there.
You don’t have to talk as if people disassembling Lariat are scrubs. There are quite a few good points here made by good players.
It is too multi-faceted and does too much chip damage.
It’s pretty much the only thing that sticks out about Zangief. Otherwise he is a perfectly designed character designed to meet the best standards of the SF4 engine. He’s a real powerhouse and he has so many tools to get around projectiles and pokes now it’s amazing. I think of all the characters in the SF4 roster, Zangief requires the least amount of modification. I can’t really think of any other character as well-rounded as Zangief.
But just because the words “too strong” are tossed around by scrubs doesn’t mean that there are no moves that are too strong in Street Fighter 4 or any fighting game. Sometimes it is best to accept some realities rather than believing in the infallibility of game designers.
(Waits for massive volley of negative reputation for suggesting a move is too strong)
You’re right but see in this case the move ISNT overpowered.
Show me all the top ranked giefs throwing out lariat like its some broken move.
EDIT: NVM DISREGARD THIS heh
Kick lariat needs to stayout longer. as of now, its almost useless.
i dunno about the “Gief thriving in lag infested state” . . . . . cuz I HATE lags and I just CANNOT play a good Gief with horrible lag. I LOSE almost all the time. The lariat doesn’t work for me with lag and I cannot do combos!!
So yeah, i mean we all lose to scrubs all the time, face it. I’ve lost to scrubby ass ken users who just spams two moves all match and I lose to it. Not complaining about it saying it should not be like that blah blah blah.
I disagree with you there qOcOp . . . to an extent. I like to use kick lariat as a bait and meter builder. Also in combos. Mainly I use it to bait run aways and Honda/Rog players along with Cammy and you get the idea there. not at all “almost useless”, but rather pretty damn useful. Just needs to move more horizontally that’s all.
Well, you said “broken”. Lariat’s not broken. That would imply that fighting a Zangief is useless.
Lariat’s just too good, for all the reasons listed in this thread by other users. It becomes even better when the fighter has to rely entirely on pokes or throws, like Abel or Bison; it’s a free shutdown.
Considering it can dodge Gen’s PPP stance Ultra and allow a free Ultra right after? No. It’s shorter for the reasons of throwing off timing from the opponent.