you laugh yet you have no answer…ide like to hear it if you do.
**Lariat is stupid good for Gief. Shoryuken is not stupid good for Ryu. **
Actually, yes it is. Maybe if you used ken or akuma as an example there would be an argument, but SRK probably has even more advantages than lariat has
Make lariat a command move, (hadouken motion maybe, or down down 3p) than you can pull off EX for that.
Increase his walking speed and lower his armor and damage output some.
Give him an alternate bear costume too XD
multiple hitting lariat ala MVC2
dp+k special, like vs game
VS. game flashing armour when doing specials
dunno if this has been mentioned becasue i dont really care to read earlier, but why does lariat build meter?
there is no ex version of it and its not VERY risky to just spam full screen. so why does it build meter…
My thoughts on gief changes:
**Lariats:
**
Kick is perfectly fine as is due to it having less priority against jump-ins and in general.
Punch needs tidier hit-boxes. I’d say make it slightly narrower (around the edges of his extended knuckles) and make it universally vulnerable to sweeps (like it was in ST) allowing it to retain it’s use as an AA. If everyone can easily punish it in the same way then that instantly stops people succeeding by spamming it.
**Green hand:
**
I think EX is fine as it is but I’d like to see the normal green hand with a bit more projectile invulnerability, because in SF4 it’s a bit of a pain to use it regularily for it’s intended purpose (advancing through fireballs). It’s unsafe even on hit so you’re potentially going to get punished for not spacing it to whiff in the first place.
Possibly (related to SPD) alter the ranges on green hands so you can still use jab after SPD but it doesn’t put you in range (strong/fierce does put you in range but it needs to be a more risky option than it is right now) right now jab goes a huge distance and you rarely use any of the higher strength versions.
SPD: UltraDavid hinted at this a while ago. Add some recovery frames to the end of the SPD to make jab green hand an unsafe option after landing an SPD (or tweak green hand ranges as mentioned above) This way Atomic suplex (perhaps with a tiny bit more range on it) might see more use since it gives you better positioning.
Atomic Suplex/Bear Grab:
Shorten startup on bear grab and make it move a little faster. Also maybe make the Suplex/Bear decider be based on hit/guard-stun and not range (like in ST). This makes suplex/bear a decent option when you hit point blank or expect your opponent to sit and get thrown for positioning’s sake.
Pokes
I’d agree with henaki to maybe add a few frames to his S.MP so it’s a bit less spammy, but I’d argue it still needs to be pretty decent unless they decided to tweak some of his other pokes and make them a bit more useful (S.MK is a prime candidate since it’s terrible) That said I think his poking game isn’t too good or bad, so this area would be the least of gief’s worries right now in terms of balancing him.
In general I think some of his pokes could have a little bit more priority to fit with his size and bulk. They seem to lose to a lot of things, which makes lariat even more of a go to move for the poking game. I’d like to see some pokes made a bit better across the board in co-ordination with a lariat nerf so that lariat isn’t the answer to all his problems and he has more than just S.MP. Not that all his other pokes are terrible, but I personally feel he might need a fast, reliable and reasonably safe poke like S.MP anyway.
do you people who complain about lariat even play gief ona semi serious level? pretty dumb to nerf it.
green hand (regular) needs a buff. it should be (jab) safe on hit but and be relatively easier to negate projectiles. i dont know if they should try and make mp and hp a useful move or just leave them alone. if jab was better on hit or block / recovery, it would help a ton.
rbg make it at least SEMI useful
df.mk in air and a useful st.mk (so you can stuff shoto low forwards without having to buffer lk xx ex hand)
thats it. giefs a near perfect character.
my only zangief wish: that he go even with abel
I think the fact of the matter is that there are good players out there who lose to rubbish gief players a bit too often (i.e. more than never) because of lariat. They get into situations where they guess right and they know a lariat is coming (especially from someone spamming it) but they just can’t punish it consistently enough to stop them from lariating all the time which is why lariat spamming gief players can still get away with it, especially online where a few frames of lag can make the time available to punish it pretty much non-existant. It’s a bit brainless at the moment because it’s the answer to one too many situations at the moment so make it punishable and and it has an obvious weakness that everyone can easily exploit.
As for green hand It’s not really meant to be safe on block. It’s primary use is for pushing through fireballs (and it’s hard to use it as it is now in SF4) so the spacing should be to make it whiff and not even hit people in the first place anyway. Making it safe on hit would be something (rewarding a hit with a mixup of sorts perhaps) but it should definitely be unsafe on block with enough time to punish since you anticipated it coming and gief spaced it wrong. Still a little dubious about frame advantage on hit though. Seems a little bit too good like that, but that said I wouldn’t mind a little bit more priority on the hitting part of it to make it a little better overall.
Near perfect?
He’s involved in more 7-3 matchups than any other character.
Up close, he’s too strong against some characters, and against others, he just can’t close!
So he needs nerfed up close a bit to alleviate some of his overpowering matchups, and he needs his approach tweaked a bit to alleviate some of his seriously uphill matchups.
He seems to have taken on a bit of SF2 Honda syndrome in the fact that he’s too good against some characters and too bad against others.
He doesn’t need nerfed or buffed per say, just tweaked.
What intermediate + players are you playing that cant punish lariat on block / whiff? Step your game up and youll realize lariat isnt something you just cant throw it and be like lolglhf. Online everything becomes pretty silly so dont start throwing out adjustments to compensate for online play. Thats absolutely retarded. Get use to it. Online is far from perfect.
Dude why nerf what makes gief gief? Nerfing giefs up close game makes 0 sense. Hes always been a tank who can take damage tryin to get in because once hes in uhh, shit gets ugly unless you guess right out of a mixup. He was like that in ST too and guess what? Bottom tier.
Gief is not “too bad” against others. His worst matchup (afaik) is sagat and akuma. Sim is tough too but like akuma, they both take damage so if he gets in, good luck.
Why nerf what makes Gief Gief? Because it’s unbalanced.
Why not make Bison more like Bison by making him super powered? Because althought it makes sense, the game needs to come first.
Gief has a good number of 7-3s in his favour (and a lot of 6-4s) because he’s too good up close. Yes, he was similar in ST, but being bottom tier that time doesn’t exactly help the case for this being the right approach for balance.
And yes, he’s ‘too bad’ against others. Sagat, Seth, Blanka and Akuma are a complete pain for him to deal with. He needs better tools to deal with them to make the matchup more manageable.
Gief could quite possibly be the worst character in the game from a balance standpoint. His matchups are all over the place, just like Honda in ST. They managed to even out Honda in SF4 without losing his feel, so why not Zangief?
For reference, here’s a link to a rough matchup chart. Ideally, we want rid of all the 7-3 matchups, as this means more to a game’s real balance than top tier and bottom tier.
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/
you did not just link event hubs
Who cares the source? It’s a matchup chart, not rocket science. No one’s gonna universally agree with exact figures, hence why I used the word ‘rough’.
It’s just a visual aid for Zangief’s matchups flying up and down like a whore’s knickers.
Input was also given by UltraDavid, and I’m inclined to believe him in regards to Zangief.
Characters like Ryu have no problem punishing it, the problem is that, say, Balrog, Abel? and some others I couldn’t name, who, after blocking the first hit, can’t just sweep the damn thing like other characters can because lariat will knock them out of their sweep. This makes it more difficult to punish up close than it should be for it’s priority & startup.
Honestly, on some level I kind of agree. For many of the characters with awful Gief matchups, it’s a problem with supposed “rushdown” characters not having the basic tools of their trade, Cammy & Dan in particular, but the lariat thing is an issue with Gief.
The problem I have with the Lariat is that it beats everything on startup during Gief’s up close game bar blocking, hits for the entire duration and can retreat. DPs beat everything on startup, but are much easier to punish on block because they don’t hit on their own recovery and land right next to you. DP owners also don’t have as ludicrous knockdown options as Gief does.
They also don’t have a quick version which ends while you’re still waiting for rotation number 3 to punish and is bloody hard to tell apart from the regular version unless you have ears like a hawk. Gief has a 50/50 on his 50/50!
It’s a constant threat, which tends to make players ‘over-turtle’ up close which gives Gief a constant and easy high damage 50/50 with SPD, which can be done straight out of long ranging jab links. If the Lariat had a more universal counter (like lows) then it wouldn’t be as much of an issue because Gief wouldn’t feel like he could just throw it out into an attack as much.
Gief would still be Gief with a more counterable Lariat, especially due to his health/damage and other close range mixups, but he’d be a lot more manageable for other close range fighters and to be fair, a lot more interesting and involved for the Gief players themselves.
The way i see it, if i can knock a zangief player out of his lariat constantly with my notoriously nerfed flashkick with the terrible hitbox, it’s not overpowered.
I’m pretty sure that if i can do that, another players equivalent move should have no problem getting rid of it at all.
Maybe it shouldn’t hit low, but if the lower tier characters get a buff i can’t begin to imagine where gief will be if people actually manage to get this move nerfed.
I Agree, In my opinion Lariat is not that good, because it lose out to some stupid stuff. It shouldn’t hit low but what does Gief have to counter fireball spammers. Green Hand is useless if it’s not EX, plus it’s to easy to punish. Lariat sucks as an anti-air if your not crouching because it only trades and that’s not helpful in a close match.
If he had a decent anti-air and if GH did what it was intended, Lariat wouldn’t be overused like it is.
Yes, this is exactly how moves work in SF, if it’s bad against a particular low tier character then it’s never useful.
Oh wait, no, that’s bullshit.
And again, the problem is not the first hit hitting crouching characters, that’s fine, that’s good, removing that would overly nerf the move. The problem is the subsequent hits hitting certain crouching characters. Obviously if your character is not one of these, then it’s not going to be a fucking issue is it?
And yes, Gief could do with some buffs in other areas to better take on Sagat/Seth. This doesn’t mean Lariet shouldn’t be nerfed.
lariat has always been an antiair, used to be waaay better too