Lariat! The Zangief Wish-list thread

[UltraDavid]

As a Cammy player I sometimes feel like things like his lariet and lp pile driver are just too good, that match isn’t even by a long stretch precisely because of moves like those (and Cammy’s moves being completely unsafe), but on the other hand he needs those tools for characters like Sagat and Ryu so I understand it. I wouldn’t like to see him improved though, thats a scary thought!

It’s an evenish matchup, you’re just playing it wrong

[robotic_elf]

lolz, why do i still see complaints about lariats. OMFG you guys are lame ass hell. Ive fought players who were all safe and sound CROUCHING under my lariat. “But it does need to hit blah blah blah”. . . well stfu cuz if you stayed blocking then all you’ll get is chip from it and you CAN punish it after the third rotation. If you haven’t figured that out after over a year, get the fuck out and stop playing the game already.

I always get sweeped or DP by shotos. Of course, those are good players who KNOWS gief. Now why can’t everyone just stfu about the lariat and learn from the good players?

Of course you get sweeped by shotos, it doesn’t hit shotos crouching. I don’t see a single person complaining Gief/lariat is too good against shotos, yet every page there some retard going “oh Ryu sweeps me all the time” as if that had anything to do what was being requested. If they’re talking about it hitting low they’re complaining about the Abel/Rufus/Boxer matchups. If you didn’t know that, then you don’t know your own character. All people are asking for, is for Lariat to have the same properties against the bigger characters as it does against Ryu. If you disagree with that, disagree with it, don’t fight against some stupid strawman.

And saying “just hit it after the third swing” isn’t reasonable when kick and punch lariat are pretty much indistinguishable in an arcade or tournament environment.

[System_1]

I remember reading that abel`s bad matchup with zangief had jack shit to do with lariat, and balrog can headbutt him out of it and rufus can EX messiah

[MAGUS1234]

make his focus attack useful, i mean why not?

[System_1]

I remember reading that abel`s bad matchup with zangief had jack shit to do with lariat

It doesn’t f**king help though, just another nail in our coffin :tdown:

[Dullyanna]

make his focus attack useful, i mean why not?

Because of the rewards he gets off of it, compared to other characters. Hence why even his lvl2 FA is unsafe on block (Including if he backdashes, depending on the character). Yes Akuma gets just as good of rewards off of his inherently better FA, but he runs more risk in using it… At least, that’s what I think Capcom’s reasoning was behind this.

[Infil]

It’s an evenish matchup, you’re just playing it wrong

Gief/Cammy is even-ish? Most Cammy players seem to think it’s like 7-3 Gief. What can Cammy do against turtle Gief?

It doesn’t f**king help though, just another nail in our coffin :tdown:

Lariat is pretty potent against Abel, really. Pretty hard for Abel to punish it with anything meaningful (cr.MK xx CoD works if you do it perfectly, if you mistime it at all you get hit). If Gief knocks you down, point-blank lariat works pretty good against Abel (stops backdashes, and Gief doesn’t care about the consequences much).

Gief really beats Abel in other areas, but lariat knocking down and being so hard to punish really sets up Gief’s offense. I also think Gief should be easier to hit after he spins his fists once. Shouldn’t have to wait for the last half-rotation before you even attempt to stick a non-invincible low attack out (Abel cr.MK, eg).

[Bman]

Gief/Cammy is even-ish? Most Cammy players seem to think it’s like 7-3 Gief. What can Cammy do against turtle Gief?

Just to save you some time, I’ll quote a post that I saw David write a while a go.

Ssfiv cammy fixes

Heh it’s kind of funny to me that you guys are so worried about Gief, and specifically about turtle Gief. The times when I do the worst against JChensor’s Cammy are when I try to play defense. Why?

–Cannon strike, both instant and regular, can be done from a range where lariat won’t hit it on startup
–Random dp fadc beats lariat straight up
–Hooligan beats lariat
–My damaging grabs recover so slowly on whiffs, Cammy can do so much damage even on Gief, and Cammy can go so quickly from grounded to instant cannon strike or dp into 30% life combo that I don’t want to risk throwing out command grabs very often
–Instant cannon strike, dp fadc, and throw mean Gief’s antiair normal attacks are kind of risky
–Cannon strike pressure can actually result in pretty significant chip damage eventually

This is an evenish matchup because Cammy’s footsies and defense are pretty good. Buffer st mp, st lk, cr mk, and cr. short into drill, and voila, dangerous footsie normals. Her dp is very damaging and her fadc is sick because she wants to dash back for combos anyway, meaning she can go for combos and safety at the same time. She’s extremely mobile, if she focuses one of Gief’s buffered footsies and immediately dashes back, Gief’s ex hand will be triggered and then whiff through her backdash, setting up a free punish for her. If I had to put a number to this matchup, I’d say something like 5.5-4.5 in Gief’s favor.

Imo balancing the console characters is gonna be pretty hard because there are very high level users of each character and they don’t have experience against high level users of every character. Most of the matchup info floating around for console characters is kind of assy and group thinky, and I know that at least for the Cammy v Gief case, it’s pretty far off from the truth.

Here’s my info, based solely on me using a few characters against Cammys:

–Far st mp starts up in 5 frames instead of 7 and recovers in 12 frames instead of 14
–Cr mk recovers in 10 frames instead of 12
–Toward throw does 140 damage instead of 130 (so same damage as back throw)
–Hooligan starts up and moves slightly faster, can throw crouching opponents
–Hooligan throws do 160 damage instead of 130 and 140
–Startup on all back fists is cut by 10 frames (ie 27 for jab instead of 37, 26 for ex instead of 27)
–All cannon strike strengths do 100 damage instead of 70 for regular and 80 for ex
–Short drill does 80 damage instead of 100, mk does 100 damage instead of 120, hk does 70-50 instead of 80-60, and ex does 40-80 instead of 100-60
–All drill strengths have 5 fewer frames of recovery
–All cannon spike strengths do 10 less damage
–Ex cannon spike is invincible from frames 1-8 instead of 1-6

…And another little interesting bit of info you might be interested in.

Zangief Strategy/Match-up Thread

V. JChensor’s Cammy: 6-4. This is also the first time I’ve used Gief against Cammy (I’ve played JChensor’s Cammy before, but only as Dhalsim and Gouken). I know some Cammy basics, like dive kick set ups, post-fadc tricks, and hooligan setups, so JChensor didn’t really go for shenanigans much because he knows Gief can eat most of them with punch lariat and command grabs.

My default gameplan when playing Zangief is to use my footsies to get in, push the opponent toward the corner, or knock the opponent down so that I can start my command grabs and meaties and whatever other nonsense I have. If I know my opponent’s character’s footsie normals and ranges well, I usually do well playing footsies with them. Suffice to say, I did not know Cammy’s normals well (like with Seth, I had to ask JChensor which moves were which buttons for Cammy). I still did ok in footsies, but JChensor knows Cammy’s and Gief’s footsies well (Gief is his backup) and he plays footsies well in any case, so he went about even or so in footsies with me.

Cammy’s buffered st mp xx drill and cr. mk drill were real nice. Another thing that was really hot was that he kept walking into my footsie range, focusing, and then backdashing. The result was that more than a few times my buffered short/jab xx ex hand touched his focus thereby triggering my ex hand, but he backdashed away from and through my ex hand and got a free punish. That’s a huge hole in my usual footsie game (and one that thankfully few other characters, if any, can take advantage of; I don’t think anyone else has Cammy’s combination of great walk speed, backdash speed, and backdash length), and it means that I can’t mindlessly buffer all day like I usually do, resulting in less dangerous footsies. I tried random ex hand on reaction to his focuses, and it worked once or twice, but another once or twice it paid for my ticket to dp xx fadc pain town. Anyway, this is something I’m sure I’ll do better at once I get more familiar with Cammy’s footsie options, but that focus backdash thing could be a real annoyance for me.

I kept trying to safe jump her dp since I know it’s possible, but it’s hard even in training mode let alone a real match, so I gave that up after a while and just went to doing short knees option-select green hand on her to stuff or whiff over her dp. The o-s worked several times on her whiffed dps and moved me immediately over to her for a free punish, so that’s cool. The proper location for doing meaty jump short is a little unclear so it took me a while to remember that you have to jump from farther away than you do against most characters.

So that’s basically how the match went. We played footsies, I tried to capitalize on knockdowns and messed up a bunch of times, and he didn’t really capitalize on knockdowns much because he’s rightly worried about pressing on Zangief too much.

After we played, JChensor said what he’s most worried about is a turtle Zangief, and another good Gief and good Cammy I know confirmed that that’s how they play slash are worried about Gief playing. There are situations in certain matchups here I turtle, but in general I’m wary about that because most characters typically have ways to make it annoying, like by doing chip damage if nothing else. But oh well, next time I’ll try that out.

JChensor thinks that Gief is one of Cammy’s worst matchups. If I played wrongly yesterday then I guess I can’t really talk about that, but just as far as how I played yesterday, it didn’t seem lopsided. Even if playing defense is more effective, I can’t imagine that it’s a bigger win than 6-4 for Gief.

[AznDreamer]

Of course you get sweeped by shotos, it doesn’t hit shotos crouching. I don’t see a single person complaining Gief/lariat is too good against shotos, yet every page there some retard going “oh Ryu sweeps me all the time” as if that had anything to do what was being requested. If they’re talking about it hitting low they’re complaining about the Abel/Rufus/Boxer matchups. If you didn’t know that, then you don’t know your own character. All people are asking for, is for Lariat to have the same properties against the bigger characters as it does against Ryu. If you disagree with that, disagree with it, don’t fight against some stupid strawman.

And saying “just hit it after the third swing” isn’t reasonable when kick and punch lariat are pretty much indistinguishable in an arcade or tournament environment.

Then explain why I lose to Rog, Abel, and Rufus??? I can lariat like hell and yet it gets countered easily. I know my character and his matchups. Seriously, i’m not fighting against anyone. It’s just stupid to keep seeing the same complaints.

Shotos get it safe i know but really, like i said earlier good players don’t have problems with Gief’s lariats at all, whether it’d be an Abel player or a Rufus player. I lose all the time to really good players. It does not need tweaking.

[TheKingSeth]

I havent read the whole thread, but have anyone mention that its close to impossile to beat a good Sagat? How should that be fixed? Its hard. Making Sagat weaker is not a option. Here is a solution, please comment if you like my idea or not:
Zangief is a heavy person, when he block a fireball, he should not get pushed back at all, that way its mutch easier for him to get close to fireball spammers. Fireball spamming is not the only way to win Zangief if anyone wonder

[filldoh]

I havent read the whole thread, but have anyone mention that its close to impossile to beat a good Sagat? How should that be fixed? Its hard. Making Sagat weaker is not a option. Here is a solution, please comment if you like my idea or not:
Zangief is a heavy person, when he block a fireball, he should not get pushed back at all, that way its mutch easier for him to get close to fireball spammers. Fireball spamming is not the only way to win Zangief if anyone wonder

just make his quick lariat go through high fireballs and that will even it up a little at least. but i do like the blocking idea.

but a bigger deal is making the seth geif matchup better, that one is broken, i at least have a chance against sagat.

[M.D]

I havent read the whole thread, but have anyone mention that its close to impossile to beat a good Sagat? How should that be fixed? Its hard. Making Sagat weaker is not a option. Here is a solution, please comment if you like my idea or not:
Zangief is a heavy person, when he block a fireball, he should not get pushed back at all, that way its mutch easier for him to get close to fireball spammers. Fireball spamming is not the only way to win Zangief if anyone wonder

Sound like a Mecha Zangief buff.

Seriously though, that would really break him as well as the game.

Getting around fireballs wouldn’t be a pain if Gief’s green hand served its original purpose in this game. It sucks that I have to lariat for meter to get in on plasma characters. They should tweak normal green hand so that when I absorb a fireball, my recovery frames are reduced. It’s stupid when I absorb a projectile and get punished for it. I thought that’s what the move was meant for.

[TheKingSeth]

Seriously though, that would really break him as well as the game.

you really think so? well thats wierd, lets wait and se what other people think about that. And its not mech zangief at all, mech zangief hehehe thats one crazy mothafucka

Have you watched Zangitans challange against a very good sagat? That should explain how hard it is for zangief to get close to sagat. I mean why should it be easier for shoto character to beat zangief?

[AznDreamer]

true MD. . . even with a fast reaction time after absorbing the FB . . . i get punished. Hopefully, this time around it’ll do what it’s really meant to do. We’ll see.

Plus, we’ve got 6 more characters so far to play with . . . and against. It’s gonna be a great SF! I’ll try out Hawk since he’s supposedly a bit faster than Gief. And we’ll be hearing complaints about Hawk being tooo strong on this and shouldn’t be hitting this blah blah blah.

[Valiantheart]

I would like to see a slight nerf to lariat in that it doesn’t hit ducking opponents.

But green hand should be improved to at least fulfill its purpose. Reducing its frame recovery to 0 if it absorbs plasma would be a good start.

[chrisofrays]

Give him an air dash

[power_strenght_man]

Burnt face win pose.

[UltraDavid]

Gief/Cammy is even-ish? Most Cammy players seem to think it’s like 7-3 Gief. What can Cammy do against turtle Gief?

Lariat is pretty potent against Abel, really. Pretty hard for Abel to punish it with anything meaningful (cr.MK xx CoD works if you do it perfectly, if you mistime it at all you get hit). If Gief knocks you down, point-blank lariat works pretty good against Abel (stops backdashes, and Gief doesn’t care about the consequences much).

Gief really beats Abel in other areas, but lariat knocking down and being so hard to punish really sets up Gief’s offense. I also think Gief should be easier to hit after he spins his fists once. Shouldn’t have to wait for the last half-rotation before you even attempt to stick a non-invincible low attack out (Abel cr.MK, eg).

Since these posts I’ve had a lot more Cammy experience. Imo it’s still pretty evenish, and the times when my Cammy opponents do the best are when I’m trying to play defense. Also, the Gief match really isn’t that bad for Abel, it just took a real smart player finally getting dedicated with Abel to show it. I don’t do random lariats almost at all because they’ll almost always result in me getting comboed and knocked down and losing between 15% and 50% life. And meaty lariat? Come on.

As the game has gone on, almost all of Gief’s matchups have gotten more even. In thinking about them, there were times when I thought Abel, Akuma, Boxer, Cammy, Chun, Dhalsim, Dictator, Fei, Fuerte, Honda, Rufus, and Viper were all between 6-4 and 8-2 wins for Zangief, and now I think the easiest is 6-4, most are 5-5ish, and one or two are even 4-6 losses. I used to think Gief lost 2-8 to Sagat and Blanka and 4-6 to Gouken and Rose, and yet now I think he loses 3-7 to Sagat, goes 4-6 or maybe even 5-5 with Blanka, and has slight wins against Gouken and Rose. I still haven’t gotten enough experience against Dan, Sakura, or Seth, but based on the fact that all of Gief’s matchups have trended towards evenish to varying degrees, I’d wager that those matchups aren’t actually as good or as bad as they seem to me right now.

I don’t think Gief needs drastic changes. I’d like to see him change a bit, specifically by making him a bit worse on defense, a bit more effective but less damaging in footsies, and a bit better up close, but that’s more because I don’t think he should be as good defensively just as a policy choice and because I expect everyone else to get better than because I think Gief is too good or too bad right now.

[SoVi3t]

Sound like a Mecha Zangief buff.

I’m not sure ANYTHING should really knock Gief back on block.

Getting around fireballs wouldn’t be a pain if Gief’s green hand served its original purpose in this game. It sucks that I have to lariat for meter to get in on plasma characters. They should tweak normal green hand so that when I absorb a fireball, my recovery frames are reduced. It’s stupid when I absorb a projectile and get punished for it. I thought that’s what the move was meant for.

this!!! Gief was my first main, and i’ve played him for quite a long time. I was fucking pissed when I realized that green hand was so fucked up. I haven’t played him as much since that realization

[ClydeByrd]

^ Agreed, Not really sure why the decided to change the original purpose of the move. I would even not mind having a nerfed EX.Ghand to have lowered recovery frames on Ghand. There is almost no reason to do Ghand at all unless its EX.