Korean arcade parts discussion

[hibachifinal]

Turns out it’s both. Rohan answered me things are still a work in progress, but after discussing the matter, he corrected the shipping cost bug, and after paying a much more reasonable $22 in shipping, I managed to pass my first order over there. Hurray!

so you can order from them now? but you have to go through email?

[Malacith]

@hibachifinal : can order, no need to go through email, except if you still have problems ordering (Rohan is very willing to help). I only emailed so to ask what was going on, and it helped fix the last thing blocking me.

I just had to fill useless parts in the shipping address with a single space character, and the shopping cart is a bit weird (you gotta check all items already in the cart before finalizing the order- maybe it’s a Korean thing).

Shipping cost is now the correct amount (may still be expensive for heavier orders- Rohan told me, for France: $22 under 0.5kg, $28 under 1kg, and he told about reaching up to $70 otherwise… but for a stick and some grommets, $22 is cool).

So, enjoy!

[MeiliIsCharm]

Thanks for the recommendations, the Myoungshin Fanta sounds like it may be a good place to start.

Just a random late reply, but I strongly suggest that you don’t go for a Korean lever if you are already used to a LS-56 with a short throw mod(not sure which mod you’re talking about but I’m guessing that it’ll make the throw shorter by 6 MM)

First of all, Korean levers are by default stiffer than IL eurosticks, and are stiffer than a 2IB JLF spring. Assuming that you’re not already using something like a 4 IB spring in the LS-56, it would be pretty jarring.
Also, ALL Korean levers have nearly twice as longer throw than various unmodded Japanese joysticks, and since you’re using a short throw mod already I’m pretty sure you’ll dislike the big difference in throw.
Finally, assuming that you’re not playing any characters in Tekken that require neutral inputs(for the wind god fist) the gigantic neutral area and extremely long throw will simply serve to get into the way in other games, especially for non-fighting arcade games like shmups.

Bottom line is, these levers were made for only one purpose-Tekken(the only arcade game people play here besides BEMANI). For any other game, practically anything else would be better than Korean levers. And as for the Fanta, you’ll need to mod the joystick extensively for the “neck” part to fit through and it isn’t even what most Koreans would recommend, especially since the Airbag mod increases performance considereably.

Good information. I’m not sure what the weight is on the ls56 spring, but it’s the firmest lever that Seimitsu has which is one of the reasons why I like it so much. The main reason I want to try a Korean lever is because of how firm they are, so that wouldn’t be a problem. I main the Mishima’s the most in Tekken, so if the neutral is too much, I could just use it specifically for Tekken.

If you main Mishimas, the lever should help you in Tekken

But be warned, even the standard Myounghin Fanta has over 400 grams of tension, twice more than the LS-56. And mods like the Airbag will increase the tension, not to mention that the throw is nearly 3 times as longer compared to a short-throw modded LS-56. If you buy one of them, you’ll have a hard time getting used to it.

[The_Phantomnaut]

@hibachifinal : can order, no need to go through email, except if you still have problems ordering (Rohan is very willing to help). I only emailed so to ask what was going on, and it helped fix the last thing blocking me.

I just had to fill useless parts in the shipping address with a single space character, and the shopping cart is a bit weird (you gotta check all items already in the cart before finalizing the order- maybe it’s a Korean thing).

Shipping cost is now the correct amount (may still be expensive for heavier orders- Rohan told me, for France: $22 under 0.5kg, $28 under 1kg, and he told about reaching up to $70 otherwise… but for a stick and some grommets, $22 is cool).

So, enjoy!

I still see the high priced shipping rate when I pick America. I did check France because of your order and it looks like you are right on the bug. I guess I gotta email to fix MURICA’s but is it the noplzz email?

EDIT: Looks like some other countries has the changes while others like US and the UK doesn’t.

EDIT 2: I did it, USA is all clear for shipping!

Thanks for the recommendations, the Myoungshin Fanta sounds like it may be a good place to start.

Just a random late reply, but I strongly suggest that you don’t go for a Korean lever if you are already used to a LS-56 with a short throw mod(not sure which mod you’re talking about but I’m guessing that it’ll make the throw shorter by 6 MM)

First of all, Korean levers are by default stiffer than IL eurosticks, and are stiffer than a 2IB JLF spring. Assuming that you’re not already using something like a 4 IB spring in the LS-56, it would be pretty jarring.
Also, ALL Korean levers have nearly twice as longer throw than various unmodded Japanese joysticks, and since you’re using a short throw mod already I’m pretty sure you’ll dislike the big difference in throw.
Finally, assuming that you’re not playing any characters in Tekken that require neutral inputs(for the wind god fist) the gigantic neutral area and extremely long throw will simply serve to get into the way in other games, especially for non-fighting arcade games like shmups.

Bottom line is, these levers were made for only one purpose-Tekken(the only arcade game people play here besides BEMANI). For any other game, practically anything else would be better than Korean levers. And as for the Fanta, you’ll need to mod the joystick extensively for the “neck” part to fit through and it isn’t even what most Koreans would recommend, especially since the Airbag mod increases performance considereably.

Good information. I’m not sure what the weight is on the ls56 spring, but it’s the firmest lever that Seimitsu has which is one of the reasons why I like it so much. The main reason I want to try a Korean lever is because of how firm they are, so that wouldn’t be a problem. I main the Mishima’s the most in Tekken, so if the neutral is too much, I could just use it specifically for Tekken.

If you main Mishimas, the lever should help you in Tekken

But be warned, even the standard Myounghin Fanta has over 400 grams of tension, twice more than the LS-56. And mods like the Airbag will increase the tension, not to mention that the throw is nearly 3 times as longer compared to a short-throw modded LS-56. If you buy one of them, you’ll have a hard time getting used to it.

Unless it’s the Fujin Airbag, IST’s model when I got mine was super light, even lighter than the default Myoungshin.

[Malacith]

is it the noplzz email?

Yep. I hesitated, at first, the name making me fear it was a /dev/null email, but then saw it was the same email as the one to contact the Korean IST Mall website, so I just went on and tried it.

I did it, USA is all clear for shipping!

All good!

[Malacith]

be warned, even the standard Myounghin Fanta has over 400 grams of tension

And the really different mechanism makes it harder to compare. After the double arm lever between your hand and the switch (first, from your hand to the actuator through the shaft, then from the actuator to the switch pin through the switch lever), the influence of the switch is much less than the datasheet actuation force above the switch plunger.

I had fun with that a few days ago, and measured the arm levers, concluding the 300g of the A3 switch on my Crown 303 were reduced to 1/6 of that, down to 50g, once applied to where I lay my hand. Then, I attached the stick vertically to a workbench, and added weights in a bag itself attached to the bat, until it activated the switch (verified with a multimeter in beeping mode). It then took 370g to activate, only 50g of those being due to the switch, and then 320g of those being due to the very light 35 Shore A grommet, making the switch only account for 14% of the resistance against the hand.

And the difference is even bigger with stiffer K-sticks. The formula for Young’s modulus in function of Shore hardness shows the force necessary to get the same deformation is an exponential function of the Shore hardness : F1/F2=e^(0.0235*(S1-S2)) where F1 & F2 are the forces, and S1 & S2 the Shore hardnesses. This supposes the stress vs strain relation is linear, which it may well not be, but I guess it at least gives a clue.

So, using that, a 42 Shore A grommet would yeld a 377g resistance against the hand, a 55 Shore A would yeld a 512g resistance, and a 60 Shore A would yeld a 576g resistance. And the weight of the switch divided by 6 should be added to that, ie 377+200/6=410g for the Myoungshin Fanta with A2 switches, which would then only account for 8% of the resistance against the hand.

For a 60 Shore A grommet and 200g A2 switches like on ASI upgrade kit, it would go up to 576+200/6=609g, making the switch only account for 5% of the resistance against the hand.

For a 309 with arcade 60 Shore A grommet and 400g A4 switches, it would then be 576+400/6=643g, making the switch account for 10% of the resistance against the hand.

I don’t have an LS-56 to do the same test, nor did I do it with my JLF, but the experiment already shows the vast majority of the resistance in K-sticks is due to the grommet. I wouldn’t be surprised if using the same method showed the switches had much more influence on J-sticks, while they shouldn’t change that much on K-sticks (as long as pre-travel is the same: eg, the difference between Panasonic at 3.2mm pre-travel vs Gersung at 4mm may tell more than their respective actuation forces), but would be interested by the results for the same experiment.

[DARTHLORD_SV]

So will be good put a microswitch 75 g whit a shore 55 on a joystick 303 crown?

[Malacith]

@DARTHLORD_SV : my fiddling was a first experiment, acually to gauge what I could expect using (silent) Reed switches (Omron D2RV-LG) in a Korean stick.

Those switches are listed as 50g, but that’s at the end of the lever. Above the pin plunger, they take 100g to activate (as shown by the G suffix with Omron). In my 1/6 calculated arm force ratio, it’s the force to activate the switch above the pin plunger that I used (it also is what Gersung lists, as to the actuating force for their switch). So with a 60 Shore A grommet, if my model is right, it would take 576+100/6=593g for the hand to activate the direction, so quite close to (about 2% more than) a 55 Shore A grommet with 400g switches (512+400/6= 579g). So I guessed it at least is worth actually trying these switches out.

The 75g switches you’re thinking about, sound like Cherry D489-V3LD, maybe? If so, the 75g indeed are above the pin plunger (37.5g at the end of the lever). With a 55g grommet, it’d yeld 512+75/6=525g, so 9% lighter than the same grommet with 400g switches. Guess that may start being noticeable They also have a slightly shorter pre-travel than Gersungs (at the end of the lever, 3.8mm vs 4mm, ie about 3/4 of that or 2.9mm vs 3mm in a single direction), which could also contribute to making them feel more sensitive (though clearly not by much).

With those same 75g switches and a 60 Shore A grommet, that would make 589g at the hand, so quite close to (not even 2% stiffer than) the 579g for the hand to activate 400g switches with a 55 Shore A grommet. Depends on what you’re trying to end up with: lighter than all “newer” Crowns, or close to home “newer” Crowns.

It of course is if my model is right (only deduced it from the single K-stick I have for now, with a very light grommet, and a single set of switches).

[UncleGary]

So… How did you guys fill this out? I tried faking my way through it to get more info, but the zipcode thing that was all in Korean stopped me.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/uf4W1km.png

[The_Phantomnaut]

Not ISTMall but makestick.com.

Not all parts on the Korean site are on the international store yet. So if you are trying to get the Crown CWB-207H buttons, just wait.

I will be getting the Crown 309 lever (Korean mount, emailed them about it), IST FLF-ST lever and spare Crown 55g silicone lever this coming Monday or Tuesday! It got to the US pretty fast.

[UncleGary]

Not ISTMall but makestick.com.

Not all parts on the Korean site are on the international store yet. So if you are trying to get the Crown CWB-207H buttons, just wait.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for clearing that up.

[hibachifinal]

I will be getting the Crown 309 lever (Korean mount, emailed them about it), IST FLF-ST lever and spare Crown 55g silicone lever this coming Monday or Tuesday! It got to the US pretty fast.

curious to hear your thoughts about the FLF-ST and 309, namely how the FLF compares to the JLF

[The_Phantomnaut]

I will be getting the Crown 309 lever (Korean mount, emailed them about it), IST FLF-ST lever and spare Crown 55g silicone lever this coming Monday or Tuesday! It got to the US pretty fast.

curious to hear your thoughts about the FLF-ST and 309, namely how the FLF compares to the JLF

My prediction is a slightly better IST Airbag for Japanese levers. Maybe I will be surprised but I don’t know. My main purpose of getting the FLF though is to put the silicone tension in either my IST Airbag with my 3D printed smaller actuator or Myoungshin Fanta and see how it feels. For hyping myself over the 309 for months on end due to jealousy, I probably will be disappointed. From the videos I see of Korean arcades adopting that over the 307 though, it might actually be really good. I am more anxious than anything because I am finally getting it.

Unrelated but I think I am gonna retire my Panzer KE stick and use my Joytron EXChanger instead. After installing different levers and lever mod combinations on my Panzer, I realize that it takes too long to install em because it’s a lot harder than on the EXChanger or the Etokki Omni. Also too many scars that I don’t wanna bother getting the body repainted. For the 309 review and future levers on IPLAYWINNER, it will likely be on the EXChanger for photos and video content.

[hibachifinal]

it having A4 Gersungs worries me, i could barely get consistent inputs on A3’s

[The_Phantomnaut]

The FLF will use the Matsushita/Panasonic switches which worry me especially with the stock Myoungshin actuator. Big actuators are not great for it.

The 309 I believe originally went with the A4s but it looks like Crown went to A3s now. For my 303/307 hybrid mod with my 3D printed 16mm actuator (hopefully 309 is the same), it works amazing with the A3 switches. Before the 3D printed actuator and the A3s, I originally had A4s and it fared better with the stock 303 actuator.

[Malacith]

On the other hand, Panasonic switches have quite a shorter pre-travel than Gersung: 3.2mm (see here) vs 4mm (see there) at the end of the levers, and 3/4 of that in front of the actuator for a single direction, ie 2.4mm vs 3mm over there.

So with Panasonic switches, it would take a 0.4mm oversized actuator (closer to the smaller actuator) to get the same pre-travel as with a 1mm oversized actuator and Gersung switches.

Seeing as the switches contribute to the force the hand has to exert much less than the grommet, I guess that pre-travel difference is what makes the Panasonic not good with oversized actuators the most.

[hibachifinal]

im currently using a stock myoungshin with panasonic microswitches and they feel better (probably personal preference), so does that mean the ist airbag has a bigger actuator? i thought the main difference was just the metal backing so the microswitches are more stable.

[The_Phantomnaut]

im currently using a stock myoungshin with panasonic microswitches and they feel better (probably personal preference), so does that mean the ist airbag has a bigger actuator? i thought the main difference was just the metal backing so the microswitches are more stable.

IST Airbag actuator is stock Myoungshin. Maybe it might be the metal plate or my hand movement not working well with it. If I am trying to wavedash Mishimas, it feels like the absolute worst but it’s ok for other games.

[Elston87]

Hey all; been a long time reader of this thread and am finally making a post. I have a few questions regarding Korean joysticks that I have not been able to find answers to:

[list]
[*]My main fighting game that I play is Tekken, but I also like using an arcade stick for games designed to use them, naturally other arcade games of course. How dramatic would it be to switch from a Japanese balltop joystick (a JLF) to a Korean battop joystick? Time to adapt does not matter to me.

I switch between two grips when playing fighting games, but in Tekken, both grips feel extremely uncomfortable after a short while of play, roughly 30 minutes or so. Characters I play do consist of Mishima style characters (Heihachi, Armor King if he counts, Devil Jin, etc.) I feel as if the extra finger space that a battop provides as well as the fast return to neutral would help me out exclusively in Tekken, but I’m not too sure about other games. I’ve been on the fence about purchasing one for the longest while now; of course I could always swap out back to my JLF for use in other games whenever.

[*]Can Korean joysticks have their tops swapped, specifically the Crown joysticks and the FLF? I’ve read some info stating that they cannot be removed unless you purchase a special shaft that can accept standard battops/balltops that fit on Japanese joysticks. If so, which joysticks can be modded? And is there a vendor to source special shafts from?

[*]What would be an ideal Korean joystick for a curious first-timer? My arcade stick case is a Japanese style mount, and I’ve been eyeing the Crown 303 and the FLF for some time now; a good consistency of others say that the Crown 307 is a bad joystick, though I’m unsure if they’re saying it’s bad by design or just their personal preference.
[/list]

Appreciate any replies. Thanks for reading.

[The_Phantomnaut]

In terms of grip, you will just use most of your fingers so probably wont be too dramatic. Paradise Arcade Shop and Focus Attack has their own replacement shafts where you can install Japanese tops. For a beginner I always recommend the CWJ-303FK from Crown since it’s easier to use than the CWL-307. There is the 309 Helpme lever at Makestick.com too which people in Korea seem to like more than the others. I am getting my FLF soon so I will see if it stacks up.