KOF 2K2 Thread

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101

why not?
just give a look at frame data or similar things, some quick examples:

in an air battle who wins who?
assuming that they land any blow from neutral position who have the higher priority?
do both have high/low mixup?
crossup effectiveness?
whose damage is higher?
how much are the chances to land damage?
who have the better recovery?
who have the completest moveset?
how safe/risky can be a choice with that chara?

matchup chart is used only considering characters, upon criterias i’ve said before
player ability or player tiering is another story
this isn’t difficult to understand

hell no
’cause no one is 100% precise in landing
i repeat once again…in tournys there are in:

nerves
patience
ability
knowledge etc etc

things SO far from frame data

in mexico they don’t even know/use about alternate guard and continue to eat khannibal OY throws mindgames while on block
i can tell for sure that an average italian player will not allow him once for a tick throw setup
oh sorry you’re the one who say that AG is useless
(last weekend in rome some italian matches took place…a fun episode happened when i was consistently faking guards over my opponents making them whiff and get punished then a friend of mine that read srk said to me in a sarcastic way ‘oh, so afterall that guy on srk was telling the truth about AG!!’)

btw athena being top tier wont’ tell that her matchup against angel is in her favour
that’s why i always ask for the matchup chart instead of a rough tier list
i was thinking that this was obvious

tier lists (and i said this before) are USELESS and reliable only for a quick overview of the game
but if you want to know more you have to see matchups
athena is god tier
this don’t mean that she completely rape everyone below her
but this mean that athena complessively have the best favour/sfavour matchup rate
that’s it

she can have a bad matchup against kyo and good against the rest of the cast
kyo can have a good against athena and bad against the rest

this won’t change the fact that athena is still stronger OVERALL and kyo is worse OVERALL

so, your conclusion and sarcasm about athena vs angel (inmexico) is pointless
but you still seem to not understand or maybe don’t want to understand

i told you,
send abraham and esteban to tougeki and see how far they can go
if they’re that strong they can surely become legends in japan
don’t you have a sbo qualifier in USA?
the prize is so high that can cover everything

102

@Ren
I’m not too good at Vanessa, but thanks, I’ll keep that in mind

103

yes, that is a general error that some ppl approaching kof2002 fall for
they just want stocks to land a damaging combo not caring for the rest…
this is really bad 'cause you tend to focus only to execute any BC forgetting that you have to work and create setups for it

the most important thing required for being a BC whore in 2k2 is to learn how to bait your opponent into an opening that lead you into a BC kill and obviously quick hitconfirming your combo starter into what you want

remember also that every BC combo can be mastered with 10 mins of practice mode…the hard part is to land it not the execution

104

You can’t rate this objectively. It depends who starts the attack first, and the angle that it is started, among other things.

Well, clearly Ralf has some of the highest priority in the game, but he isn’t really near top tier at all. His moves are considered trash, in fact (minus his pokes).

Ok, and how do you use these in the end, to rate all the characters? I don’t think you really got my point.

I already told you why alternate guard is not very good. Khannibal will just keep sweeping them if they alternate guard, and the opponent will get hit.

That’s because the opponent was stupid in how he handled alternate guard.

Why are you telling me to “send them”, I have nothing to do with what they do. If Esteban went to SBO for kof2k2, he’d probably win and upset everyone there…it would not be a pretty sight. His Angel and May Lee are almost infinitely better than any Japanese player using those same characters, I really don’t think they would be able to handle him.

As I said, you are wrong in tier lists. Assuming both countries are good, it could be that one simply knows how to use say, K’, very well, while the other does not. Thus, it is possible that K’ is top tier in one country and not in another. Similarly, if Mexico is a country where people anti-air everything they see on reaction, then Choi pretty much fails to be high tier (and this is generally true in Mexico, he just dies).

105

i wish top chinese players were going to sbo for 98

106

since i love to see hard competition i hope this too…
but now i would to see even mexico vs japan

and how do you think serious game analysis are done? (arcadia’s for example)
this become simple once you have some data as hibox size, frames etc etc

you still seem to not understand and going against my point without clear explanations

yes ok,
but i told you that the analysis is done up to EVERYTHING
that ralf have great priority and damage doesn’t mean nothing 'cause another character can have a stronger keepaway tactic so ralf become useless against
that is what a complete analysis is done of

as for wiki purpose we can do some chara vs chara analysis and see where we can arrive

oh man,
i already talked about matchup charts
you pick character A and character B
you start to see what they have individually then you compare each other
what’s so difficult to understand?

or at least tell me how you create a tier list

really in that discussion you didn’t give me any objective point
after all i think that during AG you can take any OY sweep once in 20 retries
and btw if OY can hit you that with that ease during your ag dance it mean that the bug isn’t activated and you suck

yes but only 'cause he had to know that i use AG and should had to avoid tick throwing me

don’t take it seriously it was a joke…
but if those mexican ppls are sure to beat japan guys i don’t see why they don’t for tougeki…the reward is great
i repeat myself, we had bruno vaysse in europe…that was clearly a beast (far stronger than mexicans) and he only got his ass kicked by the japanese strongest

can mexicans play above the intermediate japanese level?
yes 'cause even there are intermediate player

can mexicans win over top japan players
NO

excuse me,
japanese guys play (just ask someone this is sadly heavily true) even 10 hours every day
last time in cannes a friend of mine was talking with hayao (strong 3s player i hope you know him) he was saying that he train more than 10 hours a day mixing up practice mode and vs sessions
and he told that if he isn’t at work or sleeping he play videogames

how can another country with a complete different culture compete with this?
are there out other countries that allow you to play so much?
i mean habit-wise

yes, i can play 10 hours but this can happen once or twice a month…but not everyday like a japanese

my society ‘teach’ me to go out and party instead to nerdize myself…or maybe play soccer
they have an heavy videogame culture so they’re better at
italy have an heavy soccer culture so we’re the fifa world champions
it’s easy

also about choi to be antiaried so easily…just let me say that if choi continue to eat antiairs who pick him don’t use him very well 'cause he can stick to other things to win a round
his gameplay in general is done by safe poke strings and strong mixups…plus the fact that not every antiair can deal with his quick C crossup if choi jump from close distance
yes if you jump from side to side (as i can see in some bart’s terry vs choi matches) choi is pretty screwed…but once you close distances and start to poke everyone is pretty dead

107

They are done the way I stated…through results.

Because the comparison itself cannot be done objectively. In the end, you cannot assign a value to character A and B, and then compare these two values and decide based on them, where they should go. YOu cannot compare quality of mixups, in this manner, nor can you compare ease of mastery, priorities, etc. The only way you can get objective values so that you can compare the characters, is from results.

?

There is a 50/50 chance the sweep is going to hit you, unless you stop alternating and block low the moment you see the sweep come out, which is extremely difficult to do (and you won’t be able to do this against people with fast low attacks like iori).

From what I know, the rewards of winning SBO are not high. I think most mexicans don’t go there for lack of money.

No.

No. If you think RF is in the top japanese players, then he will get easily defeated by Esteban and others like him.

Easy, they could just be smarter players, and have better execution naturally.

His biggest asset is jump attacks. When you take away his jumps, you seriously limit his gameplay. Sure, he can poke but if that’s all he’s going to do, it’s not going to get him that far.

108

and tell me,
why ppls keep studying frame data hitboxes etc etc while they could just take results?

seriously i repeat again…tournament results are consequences of a tier placement not reasons
or just any result with a low tier chara as winner can change it
bullshit

why not?
we already talked about vanessa compared to others in this same thread (page 2-3 or so)
it’s clear that you can compare quality of mixup, if a character have any effective crossup surely he have an advantage in that same situation over another without any decent crossup

yes but you’re not considering reaction…sweeps are noticeable and overhead are slow
and when you come to the conclusion that your opponent will not go for any tick throw you can guard low…after the first guarded attack he’s not anymore in range to trick you with any throw
and there you have to stop AG and react to avoid being under pressure again

it seems that you lack knowledge on AG

they can always invite japs
they travel a lot if is worth the competition

lol

give me any result that say this
i dunno if rf is still the strongest…but i have serious dubts about mexicans against japanese

it can be
but we don’t have real things to discuss on
i judge about what i know…japs are strong and this is a reality…right now their strenght is overwhelming there are few cases that they lost

choi can alternate quick rushes, jump easy game and turtle/escape game and being effective in each one
and for antiairs…the ones that beat choi’s crossup are those who have the straightest upward range (terry’s rising tackle) the others have also a forward range and choi’s jump is quick enough to avoid and punish
and remember always that dping choi blindly isn’t a good options 'cause a smart player can bait you into any empty dp

109

Sorry to stop your tier argument.
I just had to say that I didn’t say Angel infinite is easy. I called it easy-to-access since it isn’t rare to end in a situation where it could be started. Or so it seems, at least. I can’t be sure of anything since I’m noob at this.

And just to butt in to your argument I have to say that Rengoku (?) is right on this one, really. Tiers are mostly based on character strengths and weaknesses on highest possible level of metagame.
Billy isn’t good 'cause folks win with him. He wins because he’s good. Sometimes a character gets raised in tiers for winning major if people start rethinking their usefullness or find some new tactic, but that’s rare.
If Sean wins 3s in Evo he is still going to be the absolute worst piece-of-shit character in the game.

Anyway, I’ll be getting some matches this weekend in 2k2 so I’ll try to learn everything I can during my games. Wish me luck.

110

i’m not so fond with angel but i know that there are some strings and combos that lead her into any infinite setup…
maybe someone can help since i’m starting to learn her

start finding the right placement for your character,
some safe strings to use for pressure and some b&b combos
during offence try to bait your opponent but be careful to not leave him any opening to counter or to reverse parts
play safe and once you got your chance land some big damaging combos

always ask yourself before doing something…

111

Because this gives people information as to what they could abuse when trying to pick characters. Obviously, just looking at results isn’t going to help you know HOW you are supposed to use those characters, but looking at their frame data might.

No, we went over this before int he other thread discussion. Just one placement of a low tier won’t change the tier lists, but if for some reason, Seth keeps winning tournaments consistently, then Seth is going to become top tier, regardless of what YOUR factors tell you about that character.

But how do you quantitatively compare the quality of mixups, along with all those other factors? There’s no solid way of doing so, it will be far too subjective. As I said, give me a quantitative method in which you can assign values to characters based on their mixups, priority, difficulty to master, etc.

And crouch B’s really aren’t, if you are someone like Iori.

Actually, you can throw after the opponent guards one attack, you will still be in range.

I lack knowledge? I guess all the other players you see that never use it (such as 99% of the japanese, mexicans, etc) all lack knowledge too. I use alternate guard all the damn time, until I notice a playler who understands it, then I do not use it.

The invitation is already planned. Btw, they usually invite RF and Mago anyway.

I don’t have any doubts, after watching a thousand videos of japanese players like RF and such.

They are really strong, especially in Guilty Gear. They are NOT the best in kof.

No one is talking about dping blindly, you dp on reaction.

This is what it should be, but it isn’t, because it is not a concrete measurement.

As I said, if Seth for some reason, began winning tournaments left and right, then regardless of whether people think he sucks, he will be considered top tier. And I’m not really talking about just one player winning with him, I mean if he consistently wins.

Obviously, this is true. If it weren’t, then you wouldn’t have such drastically different tiers in different countries. Angel is top tier in mexico, she consistently places high in tourneys. She is not top tier in Japan, because she doesn’t place high. This is the truth. On top of this, mexican Angels totally obliterate Japanese Angels, so there isn’t really much of an argument to make such as “the mexican tier list isn’t as valid as the japanese”.

112

you two are having the dumbest argument ever. I’m inclined to neg you both.

at any rate, tiers are objective in depth character comparions and a lot of it is based on theory that’s been put into practice and verified into a general consensus, if not fact.

here’s what i’m saying.

tournaments do not dictate the tier list. let’s look at third strike (a highly developped game)

A tier list from Arcadia magazine, showing match-ups (Order is the same)

Top Tier:

Yun
Chun-Li
Ken
Makoto (ARGUABLY -- she is said to be considered top tier in Japan, but non-Japanese players generally argue that her playstyle is too unpredictable and inconsistent to be top tier)

Upper Tier:

Dudley
Yang
Akuma
Urien (Urien is considered dead even with Ryu in terms of matchups in Japan)

Middle Tier:

Ryu
Oro
Ibuki
Elena
Necro

Low Tier:

Alex
Remy
Q
Hugo
Twelve
Sean

now compare this to the popularity contest tier list

Top Tier:

Yun
Chun-Li

Upper Tier:

Ken
Dudley
Makoto

Middle Tier:

Akuma
Urien
Yang
Ryu
Ibuki
Oro
Elena

Low Tier:

Necro
Alex
Remy
Hugo
Q
Twelve
Sean

notice how urien, dudley, gouki, ibuki and hugo all move up, while yang, makoto and oro all move down.

the differences aren’t huge, but they exist. and that’s the point i’m making. just because a tournament has a certain turnout, it does not make it grounds to support a tier list.

tier lists are to compare characters given that when comparing the two characters both players are equal in skill and very highly skilled (employing all feasibly executable stratagem).

tournaments are designed to compare the skill level of each player who attends. hayao and kuroda perform really highly in all the tournaments at which they compete. does that make hugo top tier if hayao consistently top 8s with him? does that make q top tier if kuroda consistently top 8s with him? unfortunately no.

locally (here in ottawa), our top cvs player uses K-BCS and our second most skilled player uses P-Geese, Kyo, Yamazaki/Mai

then comes our A groove blanka, sak, bison, vega players. Does that make P and K groove better than A groove? hellz no. It just means our top players are skilled enough that they can beat A groove (which tier wise should never happen).

at any rate, i just wanted to make that clear. I will say however that I believe angel to be top tier, and may lee to be high tier.

113

Planning to start a new team of-
O. Yashiro, Billy and Kyo (in said order), any tips?

114

The problem is that there’s really only one Q and Hugo that place consistently high.

115

the point is that tournaments test players, not characters.

116

Ok, but clearly if we started seeing a bunch of Hugos winning tournaments and placing high, then Hugo will eventually be considered top tier.

As I said before, it would be NICE if characters were evaluated based on what they had, but it is too subjective. What I’m saying is that the tournaments (and matchup charts in general) decide the tiers, not that it should be like this.

117

for a team like that it’s preferred billy as first character…altough he is top tier he’s also a great stock builder and OY and Kyo can take advantage of this…
btw kyo isn’t worth…i prefer kusanagi over him

118

There really is should be only one tier list, since “highest possible level of metagame” or “if both players are equal in skill and very highly skilled (employing all feasibly executable stratagem” could also be interpreted as “with player skill counted out”.
And, uh, as surrealistic as it might be, that quoted part on the top has a pretty obvious 1+1=2 kinda thing showing that Japs probably don’t play their Angels right.
Anyway, could we stop with this arguing about tiers. This isn’t really even an argument about KOF02 tiering, just tiering in general…

Bleh, I had some actual questions too but now I’ve gone and forgotten them? Mind blank…
Later

119

Thanks for the info, but are there any stuff that Kusanagi has better than Kyo?

120

i tried both and now i use kusanagi as one of my mains…

kyo’s aragami and dokugami don’t allow him to the wonderful pressing he had in 98
while kusa can do decent fireball games
kusa’s dp have autoguard and a very nice hitbox, also fwd+B overhead is a GREAT cuard crush dealer…with 3 of those your opponent’s guard is gone and if you have 2 stock say bye bye to half lifebar
kusa have an easier hitconfirmable BC combo while kyo have only a standard C BC run C… kusa can use his fwdB to hitconfirm
in corner both can do a BC combo maybe kyo’s is easier to connect

kusa’s hsdm can be used from a quickpress…difficult to land but possible…i don’t see pratical use of kyo’s