I just Wanted to thank you so much for this. My team can really capitalize on this. Easily jins best tech if not one of the best in the game. IMO
What do you guys think of a jin/kazuya team? Are they too similar? Do they work well together? Any thoughts/opinions?
A few people in my area are running Jin/Kaz with great success. Kaz is better than Jin, and works well on point for 3 simple reasons:
-Better AAs (his DP is actually invincible and not that hard to use, cr.HP as well)
-Has more range, which paves the way to better footsies, whiff punishing and thus cross rush combos
-Does better damage meterless and has a ton more combo options, each with their own use
Jin is good in 2nd because once you tag him in, he gets close and:
-Has better frames on his normals, safer block strings, and better frametraps.
-Controls space well with projectiles, and helps retain life lead Kazuya created
-Has a REALLY good corner juggle in: cr.MP, cl.HP, cr.MP, cr.HP xx SS~MP (hard but worth it)
Jin can always fall back on Kazuya’s more reliable AA’s if need be, which is always a plus. Their combo synergy is kind of ridiculous as well.
I’d say run Kaz 1st and go to work! The two characters are completely different, yet complement each other well.
MA LK is an awesome anti air. I’ve been working on the timing of that, s.LK, c.HP, and nj >random attacks for CH juggles and I think we may have underestimtimated Jins AA game. I was on all last night and was doing MA LK all night long and it was only punished 2x, and both times its because they hit me while i was in the air. That shit recovers SO quickly. At mit range and after backdashing i just did it. if it his, I get guaranteed juggle with c.MP x2, s.LK, SS MP for 300 something from anti air lol. If it whiffs, it wasn’t punished, and if it was punished it was only 1 hit. I think i’m gonna start just loading up on it and if they don’t jump, fine, i’ll just let it recover.
I’ve also been trying to see if I can catch backdashes with MA LP>MP on their wakeup. Also, I’ve been doing MA, MP for counter hit instead of burning the bar with the alpha counter when i’m under pressure. I’ve got a counter hit many, many times, and just dash forward with c.MP, bMP combos.
Man MA is an amazing move… once we’re using it to full potential it’s going to become very deadly.
Idk, I’m kind of torn with the usefulness of MA and PS. I think they would be very cool if he had a stronger ground game, but atm they feel kind of pointless. You can just down back and wait for Jin to finish with a special then your out. Jin in the neutral game is severely lacking, if he had some forward moving attack it would really help imo.
MAGUS:
- st.HK moves him forward a considerable distance and is cancellable into SS~LP for a safe combo starter at range (you can cancel SS into backdash if you’re unsure) or MA~MP for safety as well (delay the MP for a tricky little frame trap). If they down back two cr.MPs, it puts you into far.HK range with the +5 on block that cr.MP offers. Far HK then becomes a decent frame trap which is safe if blocked and leads to combos on it.
-cr.MP xx CADC grab / cr.LP is pretty damn good. The +5 ensures that if you’re opponent hesitates for even a second after your dash, YOU retain frame advantage. If they mash jab they can hit you first (you’re slightly negative), but if they down back excessively, they probably won’t react to it in time. His overhead is also really good, and leads to combos on hit and +4 on block (2nd last hit, MP finisher) so you can frame trap anyways.
He has so many ways to beat down back lol
Mossad Man:
Off of MA~LA: cr.MP, cr.HP xx SS~MP seems to do the most damage.
You can MA~MP through certain forms of pressure and get a free CH for a full combo. These are the things I’ve been using it against:
-Heihachi’s two hit overhead string thingy
-Blocked EX Messiah from Rufus, regardless of the follow-up (this one got me 2nd in a tournament the other day)
-Ogre’s cr.LK~MK~HK string that is only -3 on block. (interrupt the HK)
-Paul’s max range cr.MK xx Deathfist
-Rolento’s 1st hit of Rekka blocked, into Jab spam
-In a Jin mirror, any blockstring ending in SS~LP or their own MA~MP…it gives you enough time to MA~MP back
-90% of Abel’s follow-up options after a blocked step kick
-Bob’s cr.HP xx command dash LP frame trap. (which is pretty much all he has)
If you’re not always getting a CH, which might happen due to timing, blow the bar on EX qcb+PP into MA and you’ll usually get the same results. If I know the combo will kill, against Rufus for example, I just blow the meter to qcb+PP CH MA~MP and finish it.
How the hell do you anti-air with this character. 
I literally couldn’t stop nothing but repeated jumps (SF4 Blanka style), and any time I walked into jump range, I would watch them jump and be unable to stop it. cr.HP seems really bad, MA + LK seems to have 15 frame startup and if you’re the slightest bit slow, you can’t even make them block it once they’ve landed…
The only thing I’ve tried to do is pre-emptively jump and hit them with j.HK, which on counter hit gives me cr.MP, st.MK xx SS + MP for some nice damage. But this is pretty easily thwarted.
Once Jin is in block pressure against the high-pressure Tekken chars (Julia) or even just walk forward jabs from various SF chars, I have no idea what to do. MA + MP as a ghetto reversal sometimes connects but I can’t combo off it on non-counterhit and it doesn’t really fix the situation, I’m still in their face with not much frame advantage and I don’t know how to capitalize. I usually find they press a button and then try to jump.
Against Julia you can basically do nothing once she has super. Every single one of Jin’s options is worse than -1 on block. Target combo by itself, dead… target combo special step, dead… special step, any followup, dead… MA + anything, dead. You basically have to just press cr.MP over and over again, and then convert with one hit-confirm (hard).
Jin is pretty cool and his combos are satisfying but I don’t know how to apply pressure or anti-air at all. I literally can’t stop people from doing day 1 SF “hold up at my character”, and it’s so annoying because once I block the jumpin, I feel like I can’t do anything to get away. For pressure, maybe I should be using more fireball dash cancels? Is that good?
Lack of reversal is really frustrating, expecially for safe switching
Thanks for the info Raynex, that sounds like some smart stuff. I def need to just explore more options…its not him…its me lol
Sorry if this was posted already, but you can leave your opponent standing after tagging in your other character from SS~mk.
Sorry, posts were kind of long…
Spoiler
Man that is ALL good stuff. I’ll try out the c.MP, c.HP SS MP later today. sounds good. I’m going to check the damage vs the meter gain and see what’s more worth it. The rest of that stuff is golden! I’m going to start randoming MA MP out to see what i can get lol. I’m pretty good with the follow ups. Man i love SS LP, sMK, EX BALLS, SS MP so much its ridiculous. I don’t even know if it does the most damage but it looks so pretty lolol. Jin is getting better every day…
Spoiler
You’ve got to be more proactive with MA LK. its an extremely viable anti air, but you’ve got to learn to read the jumps. Also, for now since no one knows anything, just throw it out there lol. it is extremely dificult to punish if they don’t hit you in the air. I do it after block strings and after back dashing and after fireballs. Man it has a nice big forward hitbox and is pretty quick if you’re doing it correctly.
Jin does have a reversal when he’s standing! just block for now. the MA MP is situational. But once you find that they are constantly mashing buttons in front of you, catch them with f HP+HK for the EX upercut and the Knockdown. then its your turn to mis up. If you do get MA+MP and it doesn’t CH, either c.LP string or back dash. both are pretty safe.
Not true man. Shun Matsastu can be cancelled either into fireball, cancel, back dash, or into SS backdash cancel. Also, know that on block you can do c.MP x2, s.MK, SS LP for a decent safe option. you always have the back dash option. you can bait hard with Charge>MA MP. Just takes time to get used to all of his tools.
Jin’s anti airs cover all situations. there are 5:
-MA LK for all expected jumps, or really far way jumps
-s.LK for jumps that will be missed by cHP
-s.MK for far jumps
-c.HP for deep jump ins
-Charge cancel SS to releive pressure from crossups
Just because he doesn’t have a one size fits all option doesn’t mean that his anti airing is lacking. You just have to choose the correct option for the situation. Jin’s anti airing calls for a little guessing, and a lot of reaction.
Oh BTW… I hit juri with a MA LK combo during her EX Wheel Kick… very strange. Also, MA LK was beating her and rufus’s dive kick yesterday. I don’t know if it was a range thing, but i’m loving MA LK now.
Is this in some way useful? If not we might as well run c.MP combos on em…
No, Infil is right. The moment you cancel into SS, Power Stance, or MA you can be reversal super’ed’ by Julia.
Luckily Jin has one of the best set of close range normals in the game. You never truly have to commit if Julia has meter; you only sacrifice ending your blockstrings with a special (which isn’t that big of a sacrifice anyways). Jin’s strength lies here:
ON BLOCK
cr.MP +5
far MP +5
far LP +4
cr.LP +4
st.LP~MP +2
cl.LP/LK/MK +2
cr.LK +2
cr.MK +1
far LK +1
What other character can claim so many plus frame moves on block? Do you KNOW how many DIFFERENT looking frame traps he can create? If you’re smart about it, they will never know when to press buttons, because almost everything gives him plus frames and has the potential to look DIFFERENT every time.
cr.MP is so good that if you CADC his fireball and dash in, you’re only slightly negative. I posted this earlier, but if they hesitate for even a second because of your frame traps, you can use that pause to beat their shit with cr.LP (3f start-up). Jin is REALLY strong during close range pressure. Know your frame data and mix it up…all of his shit is easily confirmable back and forth for good damage.
All these options you list are worse than -1 on block. Which is usually okay, but not when fighting a Julia with super. lol
Basically, if she ever sees that I do the SM target combo, she can reaction super. No matter what I do, it will hit me either through the gap in the block string, or punish a followup that’s unsafe.
I am kind of liking the EX power stance MA MP option for a guaranteed counterhit, though. I also didn’t really consider doing HP power stance xx special step to get out of crossups… it sounds kind of hard though?
Nice info, thanks.
The problem I find is that if they’re willing to block, I don’t really have anything to threaten with? cr.MP is indeed amazing, but it has pushback, so after doing one or two blocked cr.MPs, I’m no longer in range for anything threatening. I haven’t tried using Jin’s CADC, maybe it’s the missing tool here. I also haven’t been using half of the normals you listed. I’m still pretty unfamiliar with the character.
I also really find that only cr.MP, cr.LP, and cr.LK are hit-confirmable from close range, unless I commit to target combo (which probably works perfectly well against most characters that aren’t Julia). After target combo on block, my options are limited to basically just SS LP. You’d think mixing it up with MA MP is good but people still just block it out and then I’m at minus frames and at a distance. Maybe CADC is a way to get in with a different look and keep pressure on?
Hmm, maybe target combo, EX CADC… random MA MP for the counterhit??
It has some use. A lot of characters can get long extended combos of tag ins where the opponent is left stand. Also leads into mixups because the can’t roll. The damage isn’t out of the ordinary but some teams can probably squeak a little more out of it.
Being at -3 and distanced after MA~MP actually works in your favour most of the time. It encourages your opponent to press buttons to punish, which they can’t, and you can whiff punish with cr.MK or st.MK into SS~LP combos.
Because of the cr.MP’s monstrous frame advantage and cr.LP’s speed, you can actually walk forward after a blocked cr.MP and cr.LP to check them. This gets you back in range for:
-tick throws
-hit confirm from cr.LP into st.LP~MP / b+MP~HP target combos (cancellable into SS~LP)
-f+LK, comboable overhead
-more frame traps from the cr.LP +4
-cross-ups into j.HK or empty jump cr.LK hit confirms
He actually has a lot of options, you just have to see the glass as half full as opposed to half empty. I’m of the opinion you should run Jin second if possible. Pressing buttons on your opponent’s block doesn’t always work and it can be frustrating to open them up. That’s why you have two characters. Every time you think about one of Jin’s weaknesses, remember that you have another slot to make up for that!
Frame traps stem from fear though, if you are playing someone smart there is little reason to hit a button after c.mp till they are safe
I think that as the game progresses, Jin’s biggest problem will be people that just sit and block and stop pushing buttons. Especially if gems ever get legalized and the auto throw tech gem is usable. His overhead is very slow. He has great damage and his throw/counterhit game is excellent but if you ever fight someone with the auto throw tech on it is pretty much impossible to damage them if they decide to stop pushing buttons and they have good defense. The only real unblockable on reaction high low that he has is the special step low/overhead and that is very unsafe on block.
I think that as long as the opponent is throwable jin is very good up close and a decent zoner. Seems to counter the grapplers. Seems to be bad against shotos and other characters who can completely outclass his buttons and reliably anti air him.
Ah ok got you on the Julia info. Good shit… I haven’t fought to many of them yet. Maybe i’ll take her to training and see what she can do, so that I can see what i can do against her lol.
Re: tHP Power stance xx SS runaway - it doesn’t work if they try meaty cross up unless you use EX which isn’t worth it IMO unless you’re about to die. And it has some strange timing… but if they’re regular crossing up then its ok to do regular PS>SS to get out. otherwise, i was calculating and other than the startup of MP after MA for regular jump ins, HP Power Stance xx MA gives you at most 33 frames of invulnerability from all non special and non supers, and another 10 frames from High attacks (I think… might be all attacks but i got to get back home to train!) and therefore IMO, is better for regular jump ins.
Since you can cancel from PS to MA during invulnerability, (before that 43f duration is up), you can literally take normals before activating MP. So they jump in, and most jumps i think last 35f. you activate PS, cancel into MA, absorb a hit, and CH their landing frames. Theoretically that is, lol. That sounds like a good anti air to me… IF I can get it to work properly. Also I see no reason to have LP or MP PS in the game since HP has the same start up (3f) and longer duration. I think you can cancel either of them in the very early frames but i can’t remember off the top how many.
man i’m at work bored just babbling my ass off on SRK. what a dork lol.
sorry, but does anyone have frame data on each moves’ startups? i’ve tried looking through this thread but not much of it comes up. also curious how far mk~uppercut does as a punisher against unsafe moves that gives pushback