While Bunny hopping d/h or s OS dash is great, but it is bad in some match-ups against the likes Zero and Hawkeye, who will force you to super jump. IM’s air throw range is ass and the conversion is hard and require an air dash, so I think its best not go for it most of the time. Like I said some time ago, I believe IM’s mobility is terrible, his inability to change directions quickly makes him impossible to control positions to his favour. Although I find ground dash cancel into normal jump and bunny hopping with his long normals reasonably effective against some team set ups (good against projectile assist, bad against Akuma Tatsu), it is actually difficult to convert them into real damage. Since IM has to be quite close to combo, and he can’t get there so I thought why not let the assists get his opponent there for him.
I tried to rush down like Joker’s IM with drones, but I find a lot of people just super jump away from them, and because IM can’t get his ass there in time, they escape and the chase continues. Hence I always try to play IM defensively while looking for something easy to confirm into big damage. The defensive pattern of super jump ADD d/h or s is effective, but some characters can dash under them or air dash OS throw IM off them. I figure maybe if I add Hagger assist and combine it with the defensive manoeuvres, maybe my opponent will get close enough themselves and get hit by Hagger (Tron, I miss you so much:() so I get a easy combo.
Which kind of lead me to think, should IM have a defensive assist and try to zone and hope people kill themselves over it or a projectile assist and try to counter and attack.
IM in UMVC3 is like a character in the wrong game to me. This is a game fought at ground level and normal jump height, and yet IM’s most effective tools are all in super jump height. He should go back to MVC2 lol.
Kind of looking at what Dime did, we could put together the giant list of Iron Man patterns and talk about where they’re good and bad, but I think it would be dozens or maybe hundreds of things we’d be talking about.
[LIST]
[]:d::h: xx Unibeam
[]:d::h: xx Flight
[]:d::h: xx Flight, j.:h:
[]:d::h: xx Flight, gain slight altitude, air dashes
[*]:d::h: xx Flight, Unibeam
[/LIST]
etc. etc. These things all have a place and are used in different situations.
Maybe it would make more sense to look at specific match-ups and try to figure out which tools work in those situations?
For instance, knowing that Magneto likes to tridash a lot on the approach, and that he up+backs with Magnetic Blasts and spams disrupter on the ground from full screen, what are Tony’s best answers for coping with that?
I don’t use d+H at all yet so it would be good to get into. With people always jumping any way it seems kinda situational so I’d like to hear some good uses for it.
I would try super jump ADDF or ADD xx SB and box jump(forward and backward) h xx SB. There is not much you can do about Magnetic Blast pressure other than air Uni-beam if they done it in the wrong space.
It’s actually okay if they jump it from a decent spacing so long as you’re anticipating it. Because it’s special cancelable, you can Repulsor Blast, Unibeam or Flight depending on what you think will work best in that situation.
In many cases if someone jumps towards you (as if to tridash) and calls an assist, the cr.H will hit the assist and whatever you cancel into will help you with their point character.
It gets him low to the ground which lets it be used against Wesker horizontal gun shots, for instance.
It’s really safe on block. If you don’t cancel it into anything, at point blank it’s still +4. If you cancel into flight, it’s +9.
:h: (which has a nice disjointed hitbox that covers IM as he leans back) chains into it. You can do some cool options in the neutral game with :h::d::h::db::s: If the heavy connects with something, you’ll chain into cr.H, which can turn into a flight combo or at least pressure on block. If the :h: whiffs, you’ll cancel the H into flight to be safer. Also if you’re good at confirming and the :h: whiffs, you can cancel it into a repulsor Blast or Unibeam instead if that’s better, still.
I like it because ultimately I feel weakest against people just dashing in and hitting me. If they’re air dashing or jumping in at me, I feel IM has way better options to contest them. And cr.H can often prompts that jump.
I dunno I wouldn’t say his mobility is terrible. It’s just different. You can’t go in with the same mindset as playing Wolverine or Magneto and get him to move around.
It definitely seems like he was purposely made to be a character more difficult to confirm with because they want him to be more of a space dominance 8 way air dasher than a put shit on screen then run in one. The idea probably more so being that you convert into combos if they get reckless with their offense or you find a good situation to lock them down into a mix up.
I feel the bigger issue overall is that everybody playing Iron Man just has like bits and pieces of what you should be doing to play Iron Man effectively. One guy is doing a little bit of this, the other guy is doing a little bit of that but if we can combine all the techniques then I think we can create a better character basically.
I don’t really feel like anybody is doing everything that is open to him (especially with assists) from both the normal or super jump height. There’s still a lot of room to go with Iron Man regardless of how good or bad he will end up being on point (which either way still provides great assists) so I wanna see us really experiment. Especially since there definitely is a lot of things you can seemingly do with this character.
While I agree on most things, I find probably the most difficult thing about IM is changing from defence to offence and vise versa. Hence all these different style and technique coming up. I think he is a very versatile character, but I would say most of his tools are on a B+ level. Because this is team game, I feel each character should have a specific role and more often than not, one S tier tool is better than all B level tools combined.
That said, I probably won’t be changing my style much, although I prefer to play more aggressively rather than a spacing game. I feel like if I have better footsies (I think IM is a air footsies/run away character), my IM will improve a lot, because I won’t get hit as much and my confirms will be better.
thx dude it means alot coming from you since we always be at each others throats lately
i agree. they actually cant fuck with IM’s normals at all as far as there own normals are concerned. of course there are punk ass moves like buster that increase there effective range… but still IM definitely has an advantage and i believe its one we should do our best to strive to expose and exploit.
yep totally agreed. the primary problem is that alot of people will say fuck that and start to throw projectiles or angled projectiles from the air… IM can of course combat this, but the point is that opponents arent going to just run into his normals all day… even characters like wolvie may be forced into playing a more streetfighter style game cause of IM’s normals.
also after experimenting, im calling it that ADB S is MUCH BETTER than ADB H, the S version has stupid priority against jumpins and dash ins which makes it EXTREMELY DURP. the only time i would use H would be in situations where i have a read… but if i have a read its probably much better to go for the dash forward airthrow. IMHO just use instant airdashback+assist S here. its his best neutral game tactic imho and mixes up easily into the ADF S. ADB S also protects sent calls pretty damn well.
which lead me to a pattern that i really like way more than repulsor drones:
boxjump forward+drones button ~ S, this shit is godlike and DERP.
theres a hole between the blockstun from jump s and when the drones start hitting so i land and 5h xx L unibeam… the stupid derpiness of this is that if the boxjump S got AG’d, the 5h will wiff and kara cancel into L unibeam puttng them back into blockstun unless they AG’d into superjump… TOO GOOD. not only that but if the boxjump S wiffs its still a decent way of getting drones on screen.
the other pattern that im REALLY liking though it has some slight execution is:
instant airdash back +drones XX air S XX xx air L unibeam.
PRETTY DURP. it covers drones while simultaneously hitting dash ins and jumpins while also preventing jump outs while also being very safe. the biggest thing to fear with this is beam supers. but if it works (and it more than likely will) you get free drones pressure for a high/low mixup while countering many opponent responses that would lead to happy birthdays or to them being able to jump out of drones on reaction like people love to do.
most fucking definitely. ive been wanting to throw in bunnyhopping into my game as well. the only thing here is that the boxjump is basically a faster bunny hop. though bunny hop controls a higher part of the screen. definitely need to learn to use both.
agreed, though i dont think that confirmation is what we need to be looking for, more like we need to lock them down with an assist and then go in for the high/low IMHO
you wouldnt happen to remember what those confirms were would you?
after having used the variants ive listed i agree. we lost durp ADDF but gained some other derp that has even better range. ironmans boxjump in vanilla was shit… now its awesome. and we still got a low from ADDF. so we still have high/low mixups off of sent easily. this actually makes IM’s offense BETTER imho and his defense is like 10 times better now imho.
use M instead of h or s. you dont have to jump as high which means less time to AA you or dash under you. plus it has 8 frame startup for ridiculous range meaning that it will be harder to airthrow unlike h which is 3 frames more and basically has an 11 frame deadzone before it comes out and “protects” ironman.
also, boxjump s variants are a big fucking stop sign. remember sf4 honda neutral jump forward or back fierce? thats IM’s boxjump S only ironmans also hits below him while allowing him to call assists… completely fucking stupid move
a defensive assist would be good no doubt… but at this point i think sent is IM’s BFFE. seriosuly just try some of these patterns im talking about and i think you will agree.
i actually think his most effective tools are at boxjump height and slightly above that. though his superjump stuff is godlike as well. once you put these concepts together you will start to see that his airdash is fucking ridiculous for a character that controls so much important space. like he doesnt even need a wave dash at all.
well since much of it is esoteric, we should start doing that IMHO. much of it is matchup/helper specific… like i dont use the ADUB variant much at all with sent assist, but with daggers its much better.
Maybe it would make more sense to look at specific match-ups and try to figure out which tools work in those situations?
(non insatnt) ADB+assist+S XX air H unibeam will clear out magnetic blasts cause of durability and hit mags on his way down or his way up since its so meaty while also putting pressure on him
at this point i like S over D+H. i’d only use H personally against like haggar pipe since it outranges it, of course the boxdash neutral H version while calling out sent.
yeah if mags is on top of you there isnt much to do but guess well. just have to streetfighter shit down and make sure that you keep that from happening as much as possible, mags s scariest when he is running sent, but he doesnt have the godlike airnormal range that IM has.
best to try your best to expoit those differences… easier said than done, i know.
Eh…don’t worry about it too much. It’s just SRK to debate about stuff. It just shows you care about the game and what people are doing in the game. Everyone will have their own look at the game and honestly nobody really argues things like they used to any way. If anything it’s more normal when I “discuss” things with you. Most of SRK now is just very happy go lucky or just kinda one track minded in discussion. A lot of SRK now is just a lot of the newer posters. Some tourney players and the majority just people that play online or go to a tournament occasionally but aren’t really people that go hard in the tourneys and stuff. It’s good to debate with people who have care in their posts and know that shit goes down in the tournaments.
I used to have much crazier debates with people in the local area when Vanilla Marvel came out any way.
I’ll read through all this stuff once I get the chance. Though the main thing I started to realize is that I’m not even sure I know exactly everything that is wrong with Iron Man or that needs to overcome. I feel the best way to put Iron Man in position is to know his downfalls or what areas he has to compensate for.
I just made a thread that I want to use to go over that (and discuss matchups) so we can use that towards this thread as well.
its soo hard to hit someone with tony on my team … because i dont have anything to lock down … =[ … marlin had plasmabeam and cold star … completely forced me to play footsies and a grab game … it felt like an obstacle course to hit him! … also cold star on incoming characters is broken -___-
Yeah, that’s one of Tony’s problems. I was really impressed by your spacing game. For the most part you managed to keep him at the end of those jC’s, it looked like marlinpie was surprised that he got caught by a few of them.
I feel like a pretty solid way to land hits on viper w/o and real assists is to force her to sj then stuff what ever she does, ik this is hard because vipers ground game is really strong but if any air H hit your landing converts into at least 600k 1 bar then IMO its worth it.
I don’t recommend this. Remember you can’t block during any king of dash, and since Tony’s is so telegraphed you are just asking for an EX Seismo to the face if you do it from SJ height.
You could do it with just a jump, but at that point you just hoping that you stuff something as opposed to catching the other guy off guard.
I mean just chilling in the air mixing up between smart bombs+flight, not necessarily SJ ADDF. If viper comes up to grab you at the wrong time (mixup what your doing in order to prevent this) just hit them with an sj.H and confirm into a full combo.
Well, IM does better than most vs Viper because of smart bombs, so I would whore those out as much as possible. But most of us pack the Strider assist… so shit gets pretty miserable.
:s: If the heavy connects with something, you’ll chain into cr.H, which can turn into a flight combo or at least pressure on block. If the :h: whiffs, you’ll cancel the H into flight to be safer. Also if you’re good at confirming and the :h: whiffs, you can cancel it into a repulsor Blast or Unibeam instead if that’s better, still.
