I don’t see much of the point since most command grabs are already in the -40 or more range on whiff range except Abel who rounds out between -25 to -35 on TT. I could stomach it but all it would change is making them more punishable when whiffing for metre against projectile characters or at a stupid range like half screen.
Guess you haven’t seen the frame data for command grabs in SFxT.
The less we talk about that game the better.
Oh don’t be such a hater.
Can’t see I agree or disagree with all the post, but it was a good read anyway:
On combos: it’s not the lenght of combos what causes vortex: the culprit is the combo ender being a hard knockdown and the HDs being long and abundant. No reason to nerf combos, scaling is already huge in SF4: if an opponent lets you get close of does something that is terribly unsafe, he deserves more than a mere 2-3 hit combo punish, and if I have full EX meter stocked, I demand a good return on investment. Depends on how far meter builds: 50 % damage top is fine if a full meter can be build easily in a single match; if not, 60 - 75 % is acceptable. In SF4, the opportunity cost of having full super stocked was huge, so Gen Super > U1 was fair.
Footsies: it’s not that jabs are too good: it is the focus attack that discourages HP and Hks from neutral. Sincé focus is likely gone, that won’t be a problem anymore, but unless the fierces are Hugo levels or slow I don’t think they should exceed 150 damage: the range is and the hitboxes are enough to justify use of them.
To avoid having something else nerfing HKs and HPs yet again, armor should be changed to be broken not by number of hits, but by amount of damage: for example, Hugo’s regular Lariat could have an armor value of 90 and only be broken until receiving that amoung of damage, so a meager jabs can’t break it but a well placed roundhouse may stop it cold.
Jump: bad priority, high damage feels like the Dee Jay mentality to me: “we have made jumping terrible, but now it will be more satisfying when you land it”. Not a fan, prefer to up the juggle system and make the neutral airborn state more prone to be juggled, so the grounded player gets access to the same damage the jumping player has. Another option could be to make the jumping player more susceptible to hard knockdowns so if he fails, now he has to deal with a setup. To put it on numbers: instead of giving 20 % chance of success for the jumping player for 350 damage and 80 % chance for the ground player for 120 damage, I would rather have 40 % chance for the jumping player and 60 % chance for the grounded player to do 350 damage too or like 250 damage with a HD included.
YES, a million times this. Stun is way obsolete, requires a lot of work and fails to deliver. SF5 should have the honor of retiring it.
Again THIS, Hate how even with a low profiling move or a full distance sweep, a move with the fist at hip height somehow impacts a feet touching the ground. With those hitboxes, those DPs could easily lift a sheet of paper from below.
Big fan of this. Close game lasts longer, gets more intense and is reseted to neutral less often.
Disagree with reducing blockstun.
Fuck, we already lost alot of true blockstrings in IV.
Stuff like cr.mk into hadouken should be a true blockstring at any range.
Guard break is a horrible mechanic too.
Go punish someone for blocking well instead of giving the attacker the option to break defense properly is lazy.
What I’ve seen so far from SFV looked actually better than I would expect it from Capcom. Losing grey health when blocking is actually really good already.
I wonder Whether characters get multiple Dark Forces/v-triggers to chose from or not.
I really hope to see it very different for each member of the cast if every character only gets one.
I think you’ve misunderstood my commentary on blockstun. The idea is not wanting more vulnerable pokes but to reduce the down time between blocking an attack and doing something else once blockstun ends. I’m fine with Ryu having cr.mkxxhadouken being a true blockstring but the amount of time it takes for blockstun to end once landing the hadouken is noticeably long for example. Frame data can be tweaked to have safe options and true blockstrings while lessening the amount of time spent in blockstun.
My point about not liking vortex was more on the length of some characters vortex combos and not vortex itself (I still don’t like it but I recognize that I’m just going to have to hold it). The 2-3 hit combo isn’t what I imagined as well but more around 3-4 for base footsie combos, 4-5 off of jump-in/punish combos, and 5-6 if possible off the beastly counter hit they showed off.
Regarding jumping and AA’s, my point comes from how little respect normal AA’s get from players. As you said though, the juggle system can easily remedy this outright itself depending on how it is implemented but aside from that one Chun juggle we have little information so I’m basing it mostly on my frustrations and experience from SF4.
Armour looks to be getting a nerf as so far with the power up mechanics and general system changes. Chun gets a double fireball and Ryu’s now has 2-3 hits and that is huge for one of armour’s core uses. Your suggestion could rebalance this easily but I think it would be too hard to gauge on the fly, number of hits is much more simple and elegant of a solution and similar animations with one that breaks and one that doesn’t based on damage.
I feel that Guard Break is the lesser of the two evils here. It has almost never come without a visible metre where stun has only had 3S as the exception to the rule of it being “invisible damage”. Guard break can be balanced independently from health but stun can’t exceed health by all that much or it would defeat stun’s purpose. Since both of the new power-up states would effect the guard damage dealt by specials greatly, characters could have generous amounts of it in order to add value and incentive for using their metre that way instead of on EX moves preventing the problem SF4 had with making super combos valuable.
I do agree on how white health chip is a good, even great addition and will make frame trapping a more valuable skill and opening up players more rewarding.
A lot of the time when Capcom implements various supplemental mechanics beyond health bar and super meter (such as guard crush and dizzy, x-factor etc…) they construct the entire game around it. And when they do this they consider the balance (from what they gather through their testing and checking numbers) of the characters all around. Not everybody in SF4 could earn dizzies, but they were strong in other ways such as good damage, or good zoning. So rather than one of these characters earning a dizzy, they earned… not getting dizzied. Stun isn’t a bad, broken, or obsolete mechanic. It forces you to respect a certain character’s options and setups that were likely designed to be antithetical to your own. And guard break from SFA was way more practical to earn when using V-ISM. That’s also what made guard break expensive to get. Rather than opening up somebody with one hit into V-ISM, you used V-ISM to open them up just for one combo. X factor blows. Pandora mode blows. SFxT set a precedent for why fighting games need stun count or something else to pick up the pace in a game without requiring you kill off one of your teammates + starting a timer for game over. Or even the random variables that gems provided. I’d rather Capcom stuck with formulae that work rather than experiment with any fighting game they invest in producing. Because people get over “new features” pretty fast when they realize how dumb they really are.
Guard break isn’t necessary. I agree that it’s lazy. Why implement a mechanic that just negates good defense? It’s way more interesting to implement characters with abilities to overcome defense.
- I agree with the jab/short hit confirm fishing to a degree.
- I don’t really agree with arbitrarily capping damage at 50%. Especially when you argue that you think 4 is too slow.
- I don’t see any reason why stun should be removed. Rewarding aggression is reasonable.
- I’d love guard break back in.
- SF4’s really low block stun and huge reversal windows are part of what makes it objectively worse than its predecessors. Decreasing block stun is a step in the wrong direction.
- Reducing push block on projectiles hurts zoners even more than 4’s base system does.
- I techable air throws make no sense.
- The whole “coward taunt” rant seems scrubby as hell.
- The rest I can’t really comment on without understanding the over all game system better.
In short, I don’t want to play your game.
No, the game is still based on fantasy. Like 3rd strike for example, Alex fierce Flash chop would make the opponent do a 180. You can tell they were going in that direction but never went all the way. It looks like SF5 is going in this direction and taking it even further. I love it!
I don’t think stun is all that great of a reward system for gaining damage, players are already rewarded for unblocked aggression with both damage and metre. Stun can also prevent aggression by defending characters as when you’re close to being stunned by the fact that it needs time to start decaying; while it wont stop punishes off of dropped safe combos it will stop most aggressive attempts if a combo is dropped and results in a neutral situation. It’s also almost always an invisible metric to the players as well where 3S was the exception that proved the rule. The implementation of stun in SF4 was incredibly poor and very shallow mechanically where only Gouken had a way to interact with the stun system on a level beyond just doing more stun on hit.
Fair and fine enough that you don’t agree with what I want but I feel like offering a rebuttal anyway.
-I don’t really think SF4 is too slow but a lot of people do and I feel I could adjust to a faster paced game as long as it doesn’t end up like a Marvel game and only 1-2 combos end a match.
-You can read above why I think stun doesn’t do its job effectively.
-Your blockstun comment I feel is more about the reversal window rather than one of total blockstun. I don’t really care about how short or large the reversal window is but blockstun on a fair number of special moves seems needlessly long to wait through for me. Tightening that up would speed up the game.
-By all indications, SFV wont have focus to help players approach zoners so changing push on projectiles could be easily balanced depending on what mechanics the game ends up having.
-I don’t really understand this comment. What about a universal air tech doesn’t make sense?
-Granted but it sucks that taunts have little to no risk in SF4. Taunting shouldn’t be something you can just throw out and block whatever comes next a third of the way through the animation. They can be shortened if they want taunts to not be a complete sacrifice of your health since some were quite long in SF4. MvC3 didn’t have cancelable taunts if I remember correctly.
You ever tried Super Turbo? Blockstun in that game are longer than in SF4 (and any other SF for that matter.) It’s also way faster than SF4.
Only before I actually decided to get into competitive fighting games, I’ve had the XBL versions of SF2 and HDRemix. I find it faster in terms of how fast health is lost but I haven’t retained any sense of how fast the game moved in terms of blockstun and recovery. I haven’t touched them since before SF4 came out.
I’m not really interested in offering an in-depth rebuttal as it doesn’t really seem like you understand what makes the older games (that I like a helluvalot better than) 4 good. And, frankly, a lot of your reasons for changing things are arbitrary, nonsensical, and/or scrubby (particularly removing dizzies from the game). It’s nothing personal, but it doesn’t seem like the two of us like the same games at all. I don’t see our conversation going anywhere. In comparison to 4, my favorite games had a lot more of the things you want reduced and a lot less of the things you want increased.
Just food for thought: if you don’t really understand how ST works and what makes it great, you ought to seriously consider learning more about it before suggesting sweeping changes to how the franchise works. It’s a classic for a reason.
Wow, that was needlessly passive-aggressive. To which I respond with why do we have to design all new street fighter games as expansions on SF2? SF4 might have wanted to recapture the feeling of SF2 but its is absolutely nothing like it regarding system mechanics and character design. Same can be said with Alpha 3 and 3S, nothing close to SF2 and yet venerated almost as much (Alpha 2 might be more fondly remembered than Alpha 3 but I really don’t pay attention to that). Judging a game in a series’ value based on how similar it was to the progenitor of the trend, ideas should be judged on their own merit and not via a simple comparison.
Let’s not forget to include AIR throw teching mechanics this time… in SF4 when two Air Throws collide at the same frame, RNG chooses a winner… 3rd Strike solved this 16 years ago!
Moreover, in SF4, when non-regular throws/command throws collide, the winner is selected randomly again.
Making throw teching in general slightly more solid would be a good idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mENBQumB_2k (it’s a shame that the guy never did part 2)
I’m sorry, my goal wasn’t to be passive aggressive. It’s like… have you ever seen a dog-person and a cat-person talk about why they like the animals they do? It isn’t really a conversation so much as two people waiting patiently to point out that they can’t really relate to each other’s opinions. That’s pretty much where I see this is going. It’s pretty clear we don’t really like the same things, or if you do like older entries in the SF series, there seems to be some cognitive dissonance going on.
As for the other games you mentioned, all of them are pretty far away from most of your gameplay tweek suggestions, particularly but not limited to the ones I highlighted. Just to be clear, I’m not necessarily trying to recapture the feel of SF2 in particular, but bring 5 back (at least closer) to what made a bunch of those old games awesome. And away from what makes 4 pretty mediocre. Your suggestions would–at least in my mind–move 5 farther away from what I like.
In response to the air teching post above, the reason I argued air teching doesn’t make sense (in this case) is that the poster seems to want to weaken jump ins while also giving the jumper more options. These two ideas are inherently contrary. I also like throws to be strong.
I’m fine with having powerful anti-air normals/specials and jumping being risky. I don’t much care for weakening cross ups though. Most of the games I enjoy have strong cross up options (at least for some characters).