It’s just to remove some purely luck based RNG out of the game in rare situations, I don’t see what’s wrong with it?
I understand shit like this happens and I’ve made comments that were different than how I wanted them to come across on the internet as well, no harm done. And I agree that our wants for SFV can be oil and water, disagreement with my ideas don’t hurt me but I just like honest debate.
And to provide my reasoning on air teching, I see that air throws in SF4 were essentially an attack you could do nothing about besides avoid them or hope they don’t react fast enough and you end up stuffing their jump. Furthermore they were comboable in certain respects like Decapre’s. Adding in air teching could make players feel as though they have a better change against an air throwing character but a whiff animation instead of a air crouch tech like option prevent it from being used too liberally.
I’m not sure whether this is cats/dogs, cognitive dissonance, or both, but ultimately this is why I didn’t really want to get roped into this conversation.
This is what I’m picking up from you. Correct me if I’m wrong.
“Jumping in and getting hit by a normal is fine, even though there was nothing you could do to avoid getting hit unless you just didn’t jump; jumping in and getting hit by a dp is fine, even though there was nothing you could do to avoid getting hit unless you just didn’t jump; jumping in and getting caught by an air throw should be nerfed because it makes some people feel bad.”
I just have all sorts of problems this sort of mindset.
- I generally dislike games where jumping isn’t risky, where defensive options are given to the person jumping in (there are some but few exceptions).
- I like games where throws are strong. In SF4, throws are already too far on the weak side for my taste.
- I can’t for the life of me understand why getting hit by a normal/special is OK, but getting thrown makes you feel bad.
- I really, really dislike the idea of nerfing things because they “make people feel bad”. You know that bad feeling you get when your jumpin is beat by an air throw? That’s good design. It’s there to tell you that you fucked up. You shouldn’t have jumped.
- If you want to have a serious discussion about nerfing something (like air throws/taunts/dizzys/cross ups/high damage), to me saying that “it makes people feel bad is” a sure fire way to make the conversation dominated by scrub mentality. Things ought to be good. Sometimes, things do get too good. Want to talk about weakening them? Fine, but show how they dominate the meta, make is so characters that don’t have that option are too weak/unusable, and/or it results in lessening of depth or competitive merit. Please keep this “feels bad man” stuff away from SF5. There is already waaaaaay too much of it in SF4.
Ok, let’s put some reasons why stun deserves retiring:
In many games, It has little relevance: if the damage is high, characters get killed before they get stun; if the damage is low or the scaling is high, a dizzy character only gets about 100 damage or less.
The rare instances it matter, it tends to so by enabling 70%+ damage combos, even touches of death. I’m pretty sure ToD combos aren’t what player expect when sitting to play SF.
High stun by itself is close to worthless: Makoto and Dudley have stun capability, but also high damage. Take away dizziness and they could still be played without much sacrifice: take away their high damage and no longer there is a reason to pick them (Dizzy? I’m going to punish you with my highest damage… forget it).
Stun may reward offense, but does nothing to enable it. If a character has highly stunning moves but they’re bad on startup, recovery, etc. How is he going to hit several times an opponent if he probably can’t even once? Dizzy has zero influence on how offensive or defensive a game is.
The best way to get an opponent dizzy consistently is with vortex. It is already powerful on itself, why giving it even more reward? Even without vortex, if you are constantly hitting you have momentum, it is its own reward. I rather have mechanics that help conserving that momentum instead of one that fades away when the opponent puts to work his huge reversal windows and other defensive aids.
Despite all those shortcoming, dizzy is a mechanic that requires a lot of work: giving total stun count to every character and then to every move and each of their hits and constant revision on each balance adjustment. All that tweaking for something that tends to matter so little. From the perspective of a player, its another meter to track (and usually invisible) that competes for attention with potentially better if unrelated meters.
So that is the case against stun. Saying it is good because there have been worse almost confirms that is bad.
Stun allowed people who were good enough to do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSi85hai_-I
and this
The thing to remember is that, in these games TOD wasn’t even the dominant form of combo/play. ST is still the king of footsie based games. And only a select few players (e.g. Tominaga, J) could really do Makoto’s shenanigans with SA2 (in fact, SA1 is considered her better super art).
However, it was still a viable option to use in these games, rewarding those skilled enough to take advantage of it when the situation presented itself.
There’s nothing wrong with the concept of stun. It’s a reward for beating the crap out of someone, and it has the interesting effect of changing the game dynamics to encourage more offense and defense respectively when the situation for stun arises. If cheap mechanics and tactics make stun too easy or braindead, it’s the fault of the mechanics and not stun. People who dislike stun seem to just be butthurt over getting the crap beat out of them.
Double Fukiage Makoto juggle combo is so hard to do. I practice this combo for hours in practice mode. The distance, the direction in which your opponent juggles to, is so depended on your timing. So hard to do, I think ive only manged to pull it off in practice like 3 times. I love Makoto in 3s!
I cant believe there are actually people asking to remove dizzy state. lol
If It wasnt for a stun meter I would of never won this 1st round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJjtlL1E1QA&list=FLZTu5L2Y9r6kKqiLceY-myg&index=7
Do you think air throws are overpowered or abusable in SF4? You land an airthrow by making a good read on the opponent. An airthrow isn’t much different from an air attack. It has startup and range. It can get stuffed by an aerial attack if it’s done too far or too late. There’s no reason to add air throw techs. It wouldn’t accomplish anything and would only gimp the very few characters who can situationally make use of air throws.
And what the hell does Decapre’s comboable airthrow have to do with anything???
I’m all for air teching if just to remove the whole RNG factor where, when two air throws clash, a winner is chosen randomly.
As for Decapre’s combo into air throw, just make it so that they can’t tech it out of hitstun. Though part of me has a nagging feeling that her airthrow isn’t actually a “throw” at all, but an attack with an “on hit” animation.
I think here’s more people trying to recreate their favorite games, and looking at them through nostalgia glasses not critizising them in the slightest, instead of looking at SFV as something fresh and trying to bring the best elements of older SF games into it.
I don’t understand the obsession with the dizzy state. Punish a player who is getting beaten up, by getting beaten up even more. I’m not sorry for parroting MikeZ here because he is right…
That mechanic is unnecessary especially in games that do not show a stun bar.
I’m alright with dizzy in 3S since it forces a reaction an the players side since you know when you’re in danger of getting dizzied.
In SF2 that shit was totally random and in SF4 you only get dizzied when you’re about to die anyways and there’s not even an indicator for that which is bad imo.
What I’d personally like to see return from 3S is the nicely balanced offense/defense system.
That game doesn’t have guard break and doesn’t need it because it has so many ways to break down and also maintain defense in a fun way.
Especially being able to combo into super from a successful overhead attack on a crouching opponent is a nice way to get damage in on people who hold down+back all the time, then you also have throws which are hard to tech and counter blocking opponents and of course as a defender you also have ways around all of that, so it’s not like there’s no room to play 3S “lame”.
What I miss in SF is a system where everything has an easy and rewarding answer. You can’t just tell someone who’s asking how to beat someone who just blocks in SF4 that he should throw or overhead him since he’s probably also mashing crouch tech which beats throws and needs character specific frame traps to beat and the short that comes out beats every overhead bar airborne ones.
Or beating people who mash reversals on their wakeup is also way too hard with you having to learn specific safe jumps and shit.
I feel like the basic systems of countering attack and defense should always have easy answers. How much advantage you get out of those answers should depend on how much time you’ve invested into the game by learning optimized combos and stuff.
^so you’re asking for parries but no stun??
Also a lot of characters in SF4 with good offense or zoning had pretty low stun and wouldn’t die even after a full stun combo, so yeah the stun was important to making the game playable. It’s honestly its own comeback mechanic that doesn’t depend on somebody making a comeback to take effect. Don’t want to get stunned? Tighten up your defense or minimize your risk taking. And it’s not like somebody could really count on a stun combo doing 50% less than full damage because of scaling. Stun is fair and essential.
techable air throws sounds good. I think techable command throws would be interesting also so long as the ranges overlapped, and you could tech with normal grab when you’re stand teching.
Command throws shouldn’t be techable. The only exception should be when two command throws collide, which should force a tech, instead of the system randomly determining who wins.
just chiming in here about guard break. if 5 has the same issues with crap walk/dash speeds then i think it should be in. with faster walk speeds, better throws that are harder to tech, and better overheads, there’s no need for it.
also, there needs to be more pushback on block. it’s bullshit what SF4 did. you can’t have hardly any pushback and on top have very little block stun with FADC on block in reversal situations.
I started part 2, which included some interesting things about negative edge teching and other minutiae, but the bulk of it was going to be how and when to use throws and how to defend against them. Then I realized that some of the techniques involve an understanding of 2D fundamentals which too few people understand. I got half-way through my “SF fundamentals” vid, then Ultra came out and I sorta lost interest. I think I’ll make it my mission to finish the fundamentals vid soon.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I’ve voiced my opinion a few times that the revenge gauge should only work once. A revenge is just that - one time to come back. This SF4 nonsense of “I’ll hit you with my Ultra, but I’ll hit you with mine …but ha ha mine is full again!” is utter bull shit and takes away the whole point of a revenge gauge.
The other things I’d like to see are less free meter giveaways for getting your ass kicked and less scaling at the low end of a health bar.
In other words stop bad players scrubbing out bad play and make the game rewarding for smart play, then we might actually get smarter players.
I’m not asking for parries at all.
I like the mechanic in 3S since it puts more emphasis on yomi but I also like fireball wars, so I wouldn’t be sad if it’s in but wouldn’t shed a tear if it wasn’t either.
Basically what I’m asking for is the best of every SF:
-SF2’s simple and fundamentals based gameplay, strong zoning and manageable roster.
-SF3’s throw teching, pace, relative lack of option selects and its cool super system
-SF4’s bread and butter combos (minus the fucking stupid hard links in everything)
To answer the question, I just don’t feel that dizzies are such a fun gameplay addition that they MUST be there and if there are, I prefer the stun bar to be visible.
Sadly revenge bar is already in so my hopes are slim of having a lot of cool supers.
Stun bar is cosmetics. Most players know stun and when you’re there and when they are there. I mean yeah put it in there if you like, but only if it serves some purpose in conjunction with another mechanic - like guard break.
The game needs to have better walk speeds across the board. Give characters Akuma/Cammy speed and everyone is viable or at very least fun.
From what we’ve seen, this is effectively how it’ll work in V since it fills up much slower now, taking almost your entire lifebar before it reaches full.
- Better netcode
- Storyline set after the events of 3rd Strike
- Good Storyline (Having characters follow different path and see how it affects other characters, Cutscenes, Rival Battle and each characters having different boss fights with different objectives.)
- No Focus attacks
- No Ultras
- No OTG
- No Quick Wake-ups
- Stun bar similar to the SF3 series
- No Shortcuts
- Toning down input leniency.
- Reversal Window cut to be either similar to SSF2T or 3rd Strike
- No Invicibility on Backdash
- Parry (Window similar to CVS2)
- Being able to use different supers depending on the input as long as your super bar is full (Ex: QCF,QCF= Shinku Hadouken, QCB,QCB= Shinku Tatsumaki Senpu Kyaku, HCB,QCF= Denjin Hadouken) or Having different super arts similar to the SF3 series.
Please no. As previously stated, most of us would rather that hard knockdowns be limited to supers and command grabs only, lest we have another vortex/set-play fest like IV.