This thread reeks of elitism. I am from Europe and my connection to most people within europe is perfectly fine and I always find games . Everyone knows that there is some bs associated with online but the majority of players with high pp are also good players. To even suggest that most of these players could not adapt to offline play given some time amongst arcade/ tournament regulars is laughable and incredibly naive.
I will make an analogy with online poker and live poker. Everyone knows and agrees they are fundamentally the same game with some nuances to consider. The best players shine in both formats. It was originally thought that online beasts couldn’t translate their success to the live felts and vice versa. In the early years it seemed that way. Now it is clear that either type of player simply adjusts and keeps beasting regardless of format. Online is diluted with many more bad players and more agressive gambling which gives the impression that “live poker” is true poker , yet the same names appear at the top of both formats tournament results. The nature of online gives the impression its just messing around and doesn’t accurately reflect skill levels. Yes, there are a lot of bad regulars with positive ROI ( return on investment) but that doesn’t suggest that the majority of winning players are in fact good players. They absolutely are and I have first hand experience in that domain.
I have played many players through endless battle of pp level 2-5k( some 2k felt more solid than 4k players but overwhelmingly the 4k pp players were stronger). There is a clear trend that the opposition gets better with increasing pp. Is it a clear black and white kind of difference? No , but you can be guaranteed there is enough correlation to agree that it means something.
It’s common sense not to give a crap about a meaningless number which can easily be inflated.
The flaw in your logic is that you fail to realize that while a good players can get high PP, having high PP doesn’t translate to being a good player.
It’s been explained to you a million times why the system fails to be accurate and how the system can easily be cheated and yet you ignore this.
I guess elitism is the buzz word people use now when they don’t like what people are saying.
I can’t believe you just made a comparison to online poker. That’s got to be one of the worst comparisons I’ve ever seen considering poker isn’t a game that requires frame perfect timing…
I guess the analogy just flew right over your head. The point is that there exists differences between both formats and the best players adjust to them . To suggest that pp is completely meaningless is ridiculous. No one says that having high pp indicates a tournament level beast. No one says that all high pp players are good players. They are saying that more often than not it indicates a player who understands the game and can perform at a decent level. They still have a long way to go before they start winning tournaments. Yes there are bad players with high pp that abuse lag tactics and cherry pick opponents- the same shit goes on in online poker cash games - it’s called headhunting or sometimes bumhunting and is completely frowned upon. That is one of the many similarities in the analogy I made. I am not spelling out the rest of them. You’re a smart guy sol , you can definitely do better than this( Pointing out that poker doesn’t have frames to consider?? stop trying so hard man). It is a completely valid comparison and if you had any experience in the online poker world you wouldn’t be so quick to jump to such flippant and embarrassing statements.
I think the way we left off in the other thread you have been just dying to jump down my throat and make me look bad to your little buddies on here. You linked me to some scientific study about reaction times but not reaction times directly experimented with fighting games and you acted as if you had just performed something incredible. You look down on people frequently thinking you have identified the latest scrub and speak like a complete and utter twat to them. You guys in the US may have shitty internet and vast amounts of derp dee derp players but here in europe there is a large pool of very strong players. Not tournament standard but they would definitely adjust to the frame differences and progress their game in the live arena. Finally ,the buzzword is elitism, yes, because it is highly disrespectful to the many many players who have put in a considerable amount of time to become excellent online sf4 players and would be excellent live players also given time and place.
Oh here comes the troops . It’s hilarious seeing the same people pat each other on the back when you have no fkking clue what you are even talking about.
I like chess and play it here and there. I don’t know a lot about online chess so I’ll refrain from being a sarcastic dick to you. I’m sure you make your living from online chess and I don’t know anything about online poker. Oh wait, I make a living from it.
No I got it, the analogy is just isn’t a good analogy.
I’m an avid poker player. Everytime I’ve been down to Evo I always stop off at the poker table and usually walk away ahead on the evening. I play online poker from time to time.
Poker is a game that translates very well between online and offline. Sure I can’t see the opponent’s face when I am online, but I can still pick up on their betting habits, I still have to gain information by calling a player, I still have to keep track of when they bet, etc.
In terms of how the game is played the core game of poker doesn’t change enough from online to offline to make it so top players can’t win.
Chess is another game that translates very well between online and offline. Why? Because 2 frames of lag doesn’t matter in chess and I don’t need to see anything else besides the board to figure out what my opponent is doing.
Some games are just as good (or nearly as good) online as they are offline. Poker is one of those games, chess is one of those games, but fighting games are not one of those games.
You are comparing Apples and Oranges. That’s why the analogy doesn’t work.
Fighting games are more sensitive to tiny timing differences than even other video games are. If I play mario kart online I don’t care if I have 2 frames of lag because it generally doesn’t effect much.
I talk down to people who think they know everything, continue to act like they know everything in the face of evidence, and overall are in their own little world. If you show you refuse to learn even when it’s been shown you don’t know anything, that’s when I talk down to you.
If you can admit when you are wrong, are able to provide a good example when you are right, and actually show me you have some ounce of reason in your head, or at the very least show me you can actually win at the game I don’t talk down to you. If you show you are willing to learn from those more experienced than you, I don’t talk down to you.
The problem is SRK is full of people who don’t know as much as they think they do and continue to shit on the players who actually do know things. There are several great to top level players here who have gone to large scale tournaments and have done well, but somehow random people continue to crap on them.
The best part is many of these people on SRK I have played at some point or seen their game player and I know exactly where their skill level is at which is why I have a short fuse with many people when they insist on pulling this horse crap.
I sound like a jerk because after years of dealing with this crap I get tired of it.
I don’t disrespect the players, I disrespect the system.
I said PP is a worthless number, because it is. But you know what? You can play online without earning a single point of PP and in fact playing in endless is overall better because you can play in a long set and get use to picking up on player’s habits which is a valuable skill. Something you can’t learn playing ranked.
You can learn things from playing online, we haven’t said online is completely worthless, but what you have to be able to do is to be able to sort out what tactics are more effective online than offline. If you can separate those two you can actually become pretty good from playing online. There are things online can teach you.
The problem is some people don’t learn this and some people learn tactics that they can abuse online. In fact most of the time they don’t understand that they are using lag tactics because they’ve never played the game outside of online play. Those players get inflated PP scores because those tactics gets them wins online. But those players if they go to an offline tournament with good players will get blown up. I’ve seen this first hand many many times. That’s where the problem is.
Sol you have just completely made a fool of yourself. Ask any poker players and they will tell you there is a difference between online and offline . Not seeing the other players in poker is a huge difference especially players who rely heavily on physical tells and table banter . There are also multiple differences including : being able to check the tournament lobby at any time, exact chip counts at any time, bet any amount of your stack not just fixed multiples limited to chip sizing, being able to use a HUD tracker ( real time stats), being able to cherry pick headsup opponents, etc. These are all factors that change the game online , not to mention that people play a little wilder online compared to live poker simply because joining another game is as simple as a click of a button. You clearly have little experience in this arena so please just stop acting like you know everything.
I didn’t make the comparison between poker and sf because they share similarities in ranking but because they exhibit similarities in terms of their live and online formats having different characteristics to consider and overcome. The best players adapt and keep beasting. Cherry picking occurs in both sf ranking and online poker and it skews players statistics but overall , the majority of players don’t do this and their stats give a reasonably fair indicator of skill. You of course have to do your own research. I don’t come along with my tounge wagging and go " hey theres a guy with 4500 pp he’s amazing" , I must watch some of his games and get a feel for him first. I don’t come along with my thumb up my nose and think " oh that guy just won 250k in the sunday million on pokerstars , he must be an awesome player". No , that is idiotic. I would have to look at his tournament statistics, i.e games played, buy in level, % cash in the money, % roi . Then I would have to look at his player stats , ie. vpp pfr 3bet and fold to 3 bet ratios,etc…In all likelihood he is just some random sunday warrior who hit the jackpot. There are probably stronger $3 regulars than him.
I don’t act like I know everything . In my signature, I even exclaim that " I only know that I know nothing". I have acknowledged many times that you appear to be smart and are obviously a good player. Your word is not gospel though so I think you should heed your own advice now and again too. I don’t even play ranked anymore nor did I ever take it that seriously. In the early days I did play it. I peaked in the late 3ks and now I play endless only. Not only do the bs troll messages stop but also you see far more characters being played in endless. Overall , I do agree that there are problems with the pp system and it is by no means perfect, but to flat out say its meaningless is pretty ignorant.
Never said there aren’t differences, but I said Poker translates pretty well despite the differences.
Sure online people play like idiots because it is one part they aren’t actually spending their money and one part they typically don’t know any better. Then again if I am playing against someone like I can typically beat them by only going in on hands I know I am most likely to win since I won’t be able to bluff them.
Table tells can work both for and against you. If you are inexperienced you can bite hard on fake tells. It’s the trap mid level poker players fall into where they are good enough to be looking for tells, but not good enough to realize that the other guy knows they are looking for it. I’ve done this before where I’ll tip my hat if caught my card on the river, after the other player caught on to this I was able to tip my hat for a few rounds for some free bluffs before he caught on. It’s one of the hardest things in both poker and fighting games is to know when someone is setting you up for something.
Online poker has its problems as any online game does, but they are not on the level of problems fighting games have.
It isn’t ignorant, it is saying “don’t worry about this number because in the long run it isn’t going to get you anywhere, focus on more important things”
It’s the trap players keep falling for. You can have high PP and still be terrible. The idea is to work on learning the important factors of the game. From that you can actually be successful.
You probably are an avid poker player, but I can tell that you are probably only experienced in small/mid stake games ( $0.01-50) and that the factors I am talking about really become apparent as you ascend the buy in ladder. I mean absolutely no disrespect by that . I have worked my way up over 5 years from freerolls to playing 50-150 mtts regularly and play a few higher events here and there.
One of the reasons I don’t think the poker comparison is valid is even if you have played SF4 on a head to head cabinet where you don’t get to see the opponent , there is still a significant difference between SF4 offline and online.
There are simply way more tactics that work online than work offline due to the timing differences. For instance I hate the DJ and Blanka match ups online because I can’t play them the way I need to play them. The are “grind it out” style match ups that require you to not waste an opportunity, but online you frequently will not be able to get whiff punishes or be able to react in time. DJ’s knee drop is one move that offline that already requires a fairly fast reaction time, but online that knee becomes insanely good.
Will a top player still come out on top most of the time? Yes, but lesser players tend to collect more wins than they should. Hell I’ve beaten Wolfkrone online, but when I play him in person it’s not the same.
I don’t see what poker has to do with anything. Why was it brought up? Poker isn’t a fighting game.
What matters is: do you play fighting games offline with a competitive scene often? If there were differences between online and offline would you be able to tell? Do you know the matchups for your characters and what wouldn’t work offline? The rest is a contest about nothing.
Online and offline toolsets are different so this all matters. You guys keep sarcastically saying things like ‘oh no I have to adjust my game for online’ as if its a matter of changing timing a little and that’s it. No, it’s more like you can no longer react to things as cleanly and the whole matchup changes.
If I may borrow from a game I’m much better at. In 3s offline I will punish Akuma poorly spaced tatsu 99% of the time with reversal super or uppercut. Online it’s 50 50 whether I even block it in time and it may or may not get punished even if I do. I just can’t see it in time because of the nature of online. So what is usually a bad decision offline becomes so much better online. Akuma should’ve lost half his health because Chun can reversal SA2 for free. Instead he gets free damage and a knockdown. A total game changer and the results of online vs offline are quite different.
Now despite that, 90% of online 3s Akuma players throw out poorly spaced RH tatsus regularly. They’ve only played online and don’t even realize what they’re doing doesn’t actually work. Why should they know? They don’t ever see otherwise. Whole matchup changes as a result. Now walking forward carries risk where it didn’t before. Instant tatsu can happen at any time. I don’t walk forward to close off his space, so he has more room to work in.
That’s an extreme example but like we’ve mentioned these run through the games in all variations of severity. In such an environment, how can any results tell you much of anything? PP tells you how good someone is at online fighter.
If you’ve played a lot offline you can feel how an offline player plays. I know who the people from an offline pedigree are in 3s because I recognize their behaviors. But if I went by win ratios it wouldn’t tell me anything. PP is the same. If you play online against another offline player you can kid of cobble together a match that feels mostly right because you both know what actually works. If not, online ends up having pretty limited utility.
I read this question as how much PP does a good player have (as in how many points do the top players have that normally go to tournaments)
Not how many points does it take to be recognized as a good player.
On average every single player you see placing in TOP 8s at tournaments has over 4500+ PP sometimes above 5000+ (Latif, Daigo, Infiltration for example) this is why I even voted in the first place.
I never really noticed that big a difference from online or off. From the times I’ve went to arcades I can still beat the people I normally beat online and still lose to the people around the level I regularly lose to.
Maybe pros don’t like the idea of picking up some bad habits online but mostly I agree with the notion the great majority of skill travels over with minimal adjustment.
Regarding online play and input lag, is SF4 the most influenced?
In other, especially older fighters, eg Jojo, 3SOE, VS, KOF, both on consoles and GGPO, does online lag cause such a difference in skill?
Because there I havent seen so many complaints as in SF4.
Since when are arcades considered hardcore?
I think the main reason people play games online, fighters at least, is because there are no arcades where they live anymore.
It was casuals who filled arcades to the brim back then. I’d surely wouldnt spend time on GGPO if there was an arcade mall nearby.
It’s the same in every game online. Input lag based net code is worse but ggpo net code where it drops animation frames is not great either. Just better than input lag.