I have 50mbps download and 10mbps upload speed, that doesnt change the fact that others might not. You can add random ass hazanshus in the middle of blockstrings to the list of bullshit online tactics too btw
2 frame delays only matter at the highest level, far beyond just “good”.
And we’ve come full circle.
It matters when you have to react to something which hits you in 18 frames. Things like Jaguar Kick, Psyco crusher, headbutt, Blanka ball, Blanka hop, DJ Knee,…oh wait I guess that’s why those characters are better online than offline
It also matters considering the timing for hitting your 2 frame links (90% of the links in the game) offline doesn’t work with 2 frames of lag. I guess that’s a big difference.
It matters at even an average level. So quit pretending it doesn’t.
The reason we are arguing the same things is because you keep ignoring everything that anyone decent is saying and continue on the same path.
Hitting 2 frame links is something you do preemptively without waiting for it to appear. The timing does not change. But you’re right, it does make some things a tad harder to punish.
The point of the thread is “at what PP level can someone be considered good”?
That’s a simple question. And given the statistical data, anyone with 3000PP or more should be considered good. This endless discussion never ends because of variable definitions of what “good” means and of the differences between online and offline play, as if this was a major factor in the majority of players who make it to 3000PP+. It isn’t.
You keep missing the point and so it goes.
Immediate links aren’t bad, but delayed links like Akuma s.HK, Tatsu Sweep, Fei ChickenWing > s.HP, etc. you have a large gap which causes you to lose rhythm so you usually have to time based off of animation or sound. That changes with lag and all of those are important links to playing the character.
In fact its the thing that always messes me up when playing on PS3 (2 frames of delay) is that I can’t hit my tatsu sweep link for the first couple of rounds.
And the answer is that PP is a horrible indicator for half a dozen reasons.
A question based off a bad premise is bad.
Except it is.
As we have told you before we know many players who get to 3k+ who got there by abusing tactics that don’t work offline or at the very least use tactics that are harder to deal with online. I pretty much assume a 3k Bison player is going to suck because Bison becomes difficult to deal with in lag.
I hate to tell you there are many characters who give inflated PP values online because they work well with the lag.
No we got the point a long time ago. It’s just a bad point.
OMFG
SSFIV sold 1,8 million copies. 4000PP puts you in the top 1500 in the world of online players in XBox live . Let’s account for some percentage of purchasers that for some reason do not play the game online also and what you have is 4000PP representing something like the top 0.002% of online players. Even if it was just the top 0.01%, shit even the top 1% it would still be a pretty god damn good measure of skill, at least enough to be considered “good” by any stretch of the imagination.
This aided by a point reward system that is skewed DOWNWARDS.
The fact that you fail to see this is baffling, it’s like trying to teach something to sheep where the only response is bleating and crapping all over the place. It’s half sad and half amusing.
Ah well, enjoy your misguided nitpicking elitism. You’ve earned it.
I realized it is a shitty way to rank people about 2-3 years ago when I realized I couldn’t play players with my ranking because the connection between us was never good enough so I was forced to play players with lower ranks which then causes me to drop in points because I played lower level players.
The system was designed rather poorly. Statistics are only as good as the method of sampling you use and the way online “samples” ranks is bad. I hate to tell you.
If I sampled the average income of citizens in a poor third world country and found people who made the equivalent of $15,000 were in the top 0.1% of the countries population it still doesn’t make them rich because on the grand scale of things $15,000 is still incredibly poor. The richest man in a poor region can still be poor. That’s the major error in your thinking.
In order to have a good accurate sample even by this flawed calculating system you need the following
1. Everyone must be able to play everyone
This is first and foremost. If I can’t play Japanese players then the amount of PP I have is not comparable to the amount of PP a Japanese player has. Because our two player pools are isolated. So even if we say online = offline, while my 4k means I am “better” than the rest of my player pool, I can still be worse than the average Japanese
Win percentages are completely relative to the competition you play.
2. Everyone must be unable to choose their opponents
This is the same deal as #1. In order to have a global statistic we need to ensure we are not creating isolated groups. If I play only the players I select I am creating an isolated group. Especially in a system like this where a single win is rewarded heavily. This system encourages cherry picking.
3. Everyone must participate
By now you are getting the central theme. We need everyone to be included and everyone to play each other. We need to maximize player mixing in order to have any shot at making an accurate ranking.
The problem is that it is physically impossible to do all these so ultimately no matter how good your ranking system is you will never be able to get an accurate sample because we are all limited by who we can actually play against. We are limited by location, what time of day we play the game, how good our connections are, etc. And we are also skewed by the fact that not everyone plays ranked so ultimately the rankings online are just a nice number you can feel good about, but don’t actually expect it to translate to real life skill.
Clearly I am elitist for saying the online ranking system is a not a good system. Clearly I must be elitist for realizing that the system is highly exploitable and that online SF4 plays very differently than offline.
Clearly I am so stupid and ignorant for having the audacity for playing offline at tournaments and then having the distaste for saying that it plays very differently from online.
Or maybe I’m the one here who is experienced in both online and offline since I started playing online and worked my way to attending majors and now I look back from years of experience and can say that online rankings are incredibly flawed both because of the way ranks are calculated and because what is rewarded online, isn’t offline.
dammit sol stop being so logical
Chubbyfingerz it isn’t elitism or snobbery, it is common sense. As has been said again and again, and explained with point after point after point, PP is not a reliable measure of skill. Therefore, giving a numerical value to how good someone is at SFIV, the real SFIV (offline), is an impossibility.
I never make mistakes. Its the internet’s fault.
TBH its not even a measure of how good someone is at online SF4
Its a measure of how much you can pick on your opponents and how willing you are to kick players who are better than you and beat you if anything.
This is really not a great way to perceive skill, and goes a long way towards explaining your obstinance in this thread.
I asked a similar question to this when I first started playing 3s. like you, I had a warped perception of what good meant. one response in particular I found really insightful and changed how I perceived the game, posted by one of the top 3 American 3s players IMO. I’ll repost it here.
*Don’t use online as a your main judgment of the worlds skill level. Online is very easy to DL the game and start playing instantly without any practice or knowledge of 3rd strike at all. Sadly, 90% of the people online suck. If you practice combos and study the game for one month, you’ll destroy 90% of the people. The beginner and/or casual player is what makes up the online player base.
Arcade is different because anyone who puts in the time and effort to get out of their house and play this game has also put in the time and effort to learn the game. Add the fact that offline is reactionary and online is jungle and you’ll instantly realize how good people can be at this game. The dedicated players make up the arcade player base.
1 Top level 1% (None of these players live outside Japan)
2 Very Skilled 5% (Only maybe 5-10 of these players live outside Japan. This number will grow as time goes on.
3 Average 12% (You know all your characters combos, and you can execute them when needed)
4 Below average 32% (These people can do some combos but they blow it sometimes. Can’t really do basic things like short short super consistent, etc. They don’t understand the game completely.)
5 Bad or new 50% (Pretty much all of 3soe.)*
Change a few things around and I think you have an accurate perception of SF4 as well. The gamut of player skill is not “anyone who ever bought the game, from Daigo to my grandma.” it is players who take the game seriously and want to improve. once you categorize those players into distinct categories, you get a readout like above. I think there are less than 10 legitimately good 3s players on XBL. I wouldn’t be so harsh in SF4 but as a general idea it’s not too far off.
when you compare yourself to the average online player or the average guy who barely plays the game, of course you’re gonna feel good. when I asked this question I had an 80% win rate on XBL 3s and I thought I was the shit. those people are not your competition. the players you should compare yourself to are showing up to tournaments or minimum running long sets against good proven players. that is the journey that matters.
Nah man. I’m perfect. It’s just not fair that I may have to adjust my game in a different environment…
Man, I would be post-God level Hyper-Ultra-S-Class+++ if it wasn’t for all the cherry-pickin’, lag-abusing scrubs. I feel so oppressed. I wanna be top! I wanna be top! But online opponents with a 2-frame advantage keep pushing me down (is that too homo-erotic?)
I think the possibility that I am not some 1000pp person who is simply frustrated at losing and thus is looking for excuses went right over your head huh? I could probably get 4000 pp without even trying, that doesnt mean I will be any better than I am now with 3000 pp, and since I know this I just stick to endless with friends who I know dont suck at the game and dont make me ‘change tactics’ just to adjust to online warrior lag bullshit.
Ive played 2 high PP hungarian players (who could beat me online beforehand) in person and I beat both of them pretty much every match. One of them is a high ranked Blanka on PC and his main gameplan miraculously for some reason didnt work when we played offline. How do you explain that? Did he just have a bad day? Or does the fact that I dont have to read when he is going to throw out a random ass fucking blanka ball so that I can punish it, but I can actually do it ON REACTION maybe has something to do with the whole thing?
>don’t make me change tactics.
>make me change tactics.
>change tactics.
>tactics?
I don’t even…
so keep playing online. have fun.
This will sound harsh, but you really can tell how many people have gone to an arcade/played at a tournament in this thread.
Just more circles to dance around in… well, here I go into the breach! (Breechself-dec? Bleach?).
Has it occurred to the seemingly high number of self declared super players and/or self-declared/aspiring pros around here that those who have no problem with online play also have no problem with acknowledging its weaknesses/drawbacks?
No one ever said that online was perfect. Nor did they say that PP is the only indicator of what makes a good player. Furthermore, most around here have hardly even defined good and those that have definitely have a certain whiff of elitism based on unproven performance.
What people are saying is that although the online experience is different to offline and requires a degree of adaptation because slow data transfer speeds, PP is still a decent measure of player skill. I would go so far as to say that this skill level even applies to lag abusers/hack users/etc.
Again, offline is a different experience. But not everyone plays this game to be in tournaments. Many play because they like the game and want to get better at it. I play online and when ever I have the chance, I hit up the local arcades. Frankly, where I live the internet is pretty solid and I notice virtually no difference in my game (however lame it is) in different environments.
Any y’all ever in my hood, I don’t care what your PP are, I’m happy to throw down. But this circular never ending debate between close-minded binary positions has just about worn out its welcome.
Actually you and I are very much in agreement. The only positions here are “PP means SOMETHING” vs “PP means NOTHING”. Nobody here said “PP means everything”.
It’s extremism vs. common sense. Welcome to the common sense club.