Ah okay my bad. That thread seems to have most of the answers. Thanks.
Engage is definitely not farther from neutral on HHS than on JLF. Busa engages earlier in the shafts travel than JLF.
I thought throw was slightly longer and engage was slightly shorter on the HHS compared to the JLF, at least it feels that way to me.
I posted measurements earlier in the thread that disagree. My first tip off was diagonal problems with the hhs while using the same actuator and gate in both sticks.
Edit: measurements on page 18
The difference in the switch spacing is due to thicker material on the cases of the HHS switches from what I understand. Despite how we each feel, I believe we are both wrong. Both levers have nearly identical engage.
I can always break the calipers back out. Still, why would one have more problems with diagonals using the same gate/actuator than the other if the engage was the same? Keep in mind, I’m not saying it’s a bad lever, my comment was speculating as to what exactly is responsible for the change in precision some users report. As much as we at TT love tight engage and short throw (myself most definitely included), that’s not necessarily the best for everyone.
If you move the lever slowly until you hear the switch click, that click comes much sooner than gate contact. Diagonals too. Both switches click and there is a good amount of space until the actuator touches the gate. I have never experienced, nor do I understand any issues with diagonals. The angle of the shaft at engage on both levers is all but identical.
Make sure you have the gate on the Hayabusa screwed in well. I forgot to screw it in at all one time and immediately knew something was wrong when I started playing. The switches were audibly different and the engage distances were off due the switches being pushed about.
I’m having no issues. I was only explaining that I don’t understand some other’s problems with the HHS and diagonals.
The gate is wider on the hayabusa, which explains the distance between the click and the gate. The issue with diagonals was using a short throw octagonal gate, not a square. Logically, if that gate/actuator combo works with the JLF but not the HHS, the engage distance must be longer in the HHS. Here are the measurements I posted before [microswitch engage was measured by squeezing individual switches with calipers, distance is from the back of the switch to the furthest point of the pin plunger at the snap point]:
The HHS and JLF actuators are the exact same size large part and small part?
I was using a kowal actuator in both, so the results I keep bringing up were a real apples to apples test. Here are the stock actuator measurements:
JLF upper cone (narrow section): .420"
JLF lower cone at widest point: .615"’
HHS upper cone: .430"
HHS lower cone at widest point: .625"
So with the HHS actuator is actually slightly bigger, but the JLF engage should still be slightly shorter with both stock. Put the same actuator in both, and the difference sticks out more.
They are nearly identical. We’re talking decimal points of difference, and that will change from actuator to actuator because of accuracy margins. The material for the Hayabusa is a bit harder too, so you could slightly squeeze the JLF during measurements and come out with a slightly different measurement.
The switches mount the same and have the same measurements for mounting. If you cut enough of the body away from the Hayabusa you could drop in a PCB assembly from a JLF no problem. The nubs on the JLF gate fit identically into the Hayabusa switches when they’re mounted. The pin plungers are the same. All the parts from the switches are interchangeable.
To clarify, I try to use the lightest amount of pressure on my calipers when measuring.
Hayabusa on top 10.79 to 10.83 mm depending on how hard you squeeze the calipers around the actuator. Lighter touch yields a larger number.
Hayabusa on bottom 15.75 same as above
JLF on top 10.82 ish with the same observations as on Hayabusa, lighter or harder touch yielding larger or smaller numbers.
JLF on bottom 15.75 same as above.
Both are within manufacturing margins.
The problem with using calipers to squeeze down the pin plunger to measure engage is that we’re all only human. We hear a click and could slightly press in or not stop squeezing the calipers down fast enough once it clicks, making inaccurate measurements. However, my feeble human attempt has yielded 17.59 mm for JLF and 17.65 for Hayabusa. On a second attempt, I got similar results reversed.
The levers are not significantly different enough for one to play like shit on one lever vs another based on measurements alone. The biggest factor is the pivot design and the over all smoothness. The gate is also a factor because both are 6.5 mm tall and the Hayabusa is 19 mm at the top vs JLF 18 mm at the top. Hayabusa is 17 mm at the bottom and JLF is 16 mm at the bottom. This means the actuator hits it at a slightly different angle. Hayabusa has in general, more throw so there should be absolutely not logical reasons diagonals would be a problem on Hayabusa over JLF, in fact, it should be the opposite if anything.
I would also like to note, measuring Japanese parts in mm is important to consider when looking at the marginal differences since these are designed and manufactured in mm by countries using the metric system. Using inches isn’t all that great since there is a lack of context without conversion to mm.
Re-measuring 3 JLF actuators, I saw about .005" variance according to how I was squeezing, I think .620" is more accurate (for the wide flare point) than .615"- you’re correct that the soft plastic (not to mention the challenge of positioning the bell so that you get the true maximum OD correct). Measurements aside, the material that the Hayabusa is made from is clearly superior to the JLF’s plastic.
.01" is about .25 mm. .005" is about .127 mm. Depending on their margins that is most likely in spec.
All true with what I would imagine are allowable plastics manufacturing tolerances and the softness of the materials. That said, you’re missing what I’m pointing at here: I was using an undersized JLF octagonal insert, the same exact insert in two different JLF gate assemblies, both with Kowal actuators. The JLF’s work with that combo (I use it in the plural sense because I had 4 JLF’s), whereas my HHS was unable to hit them reliably, forcing me to use an actual Sanwa octagonal insert (with its longer throw). Nothing that will be a problem for hardly anyone, as a) most of you use square gates anyways, and b) the insert I was using was the product of a manufacturing defect that has been resolved (meaning nobody will be buying any like that), but evidence enough for me to conclude that the engage is slightly farther on the HHS, even without measurements. The visible wobble looking at the undersides of both levers with those actuators supports my theory as well. Yes, it’s a pretty small difference, but a difference nonetheless.
As an octagonal gate user, I’ve since moved onto the LS-56 anyways- hands down the best diagonals on an octagon I’ve tried yet (huge deadzone wobble and all).
We grind/EDM/lap carbide, polycrystalline diamond, and polycrystalline cubic boron nitride at my work, usually to within ±.001" (±.025mm). It’s easy for me to forget that most manufacturing tolerances are more loose than that.
Edit: also. I’m using Harbor Freight calipers at home, not the Mitutoyo tools I use at work. Just a wee bit of quality difference there (as in over a 10x price difference).
I’m not missing the points here. I’m simply pointing out, that from what I’ve measured, the levers are mostly the same. At least when it comes to actuators and switches. I’m not finding enough of a difference between any of that to see a problem. I also really don’t want to cut away more of the Hayabusa’s body to drop in a JLF PCB just to prove a point on an internet forum. The only thing I can think of is if the Hayabusa switches are mounted higher above the actuator than the JLF, which would mean less actuator to hit the pins at. I don’t feel like checking that tonight, though I can do it tomorrow.
Took some more measurements today. These are from the back of each microswitch (the walls that have 90 degree angled .187" terminals on the HHS) across left and right directions. The switch housings are the same widths from the plunger face to the opposite wall. I screwed the HHS switches back in without the gate to keep them from moving on me.
JLF pcb assembly (factory, not switches I’ve soldered in myself): 2.079"
HHS: 2.104"
These numbers jive with my earlier measurements from pin to pin- there’s about a .020" wider switch spacing on the HHS, allowing for a .005" spread in tolerances. If you were to cut away a HHS assembly and drop in a JLF PCB, the switches would be at JLF spacing, which wouldn’t prove anything. Again, .020" (or .51mm, if you prefer) is far from a huge amount, but it does mean a very slightly farther engage point.