Lol. Sorry, I honestly don’t have a problem with that. Get angry, take your ball and go home.
If this was a discussion between Moon and Agieze it’d probably have gone a lot better. @iNENDOi may be right; a separate thread to discuss materials is necessary but Moonchilde made his conclusions and someone, who thinks otherwise, challenged them. Leave it to Moonchilde, who is obviously smart enough, to defend his views instead of attacking the guy when you’ve got nothing to add other than repeating someone else’s observations or your subjective “proof”.
Guy shows up in an Hstick thread (not TT Hangout) and talks about V-cut and it’s called semantics or splitting hairs? Sorry, but that isn’t the case. If you don’t care, ignore it lol. Accepting observations and then calling challenges “off topic”? So be it.
No one thinks his posts, barreling into PAS’ thread, or the way he addressed people is cool; I’ve told him as much and he has not been above criticism or reproach. In the same vein, going around automatically flagging posts, or clicking WTF is petty (sorry if you feel offended but it is). Sometimes, you have to need to fight aggression with civility.
His posts are on topic even if you dislike what he says; He has been rude and abrasive but like I said earlier, he will learn to stop or get banned. I hate to pick on Moonchilde as he has corrected his statement 3x (will it stop people that casually read TT from repeating it?).
For the record, I do not take what Agieze says at face value; I don’t have enough knowledge to determine the accuracy of his claims either. However, anyone is free to challenge his statements. I don’t see why anyone other than Moon or PAS is so upset lol.
I can’t imagine that my POV will be too popular so I guess I’ll lurk now unless I have something substantial valuable to add.
The problem with “challenging” his statements is that he doesn’t comprehend them properly. I clicked one of his ignored posts to see if he went on a rant (which he did, a long one) and not once addressed anything I mentioned. Instead he went off on a tangent that had nothing to do with what I wrote and then called me childish.
I don’t know why anyone gives this guy any attention. He still can’t stop resorting to name calling makes the conclusion that someone is wrong when not even understanding what was written in the first place.
Honestly, I have no problems with your handling of the situation. But if you make an observation about a material based on it’s reaction to a solvent and he says you’re wrong, you can ignore it, refute it, or accept it; your choice.
Some of us Engineers can be a little… rough around the edges lol.
Except he thinks I purposefully put nylon in acetone or something to see if it would melt the nylon, anything other than what I clearly wrote. I was testing if it was ABS. ABS always melts in acetone. I clearly wrote that the actuator was not ABS because it did not dissolve in acetone, so it had to be something else.
He also went off on me using the word break, which was used in a jesting sentence about the quality of the JLF actautor being crap.
The dude can’t chill out or be decent, he automatically assumes you’re a dumb ass and he is superior, and never asks “oh did you mean it will melt and gum up a rotary?” No, he has to be insulting about it.
Then he goes on ridiculously long rants about stuff that has nothing to do with what he thinks he is addressing, all because of his hubris, he’s completely blinded by it. Throw on top of that pile that English isn’t his first language and you have a recipe for a shit storm always brewing.
I guess what I’m getting at, and why I have him on ignore, is that you’d never be able to refute him because he won’t understand what you’re refuting and will resort to being inflammatory. So I can ignore it, but then I have to deal with other people who don’t have him on ignore possibly agreeing with bad information from someone who does not have the products on hand making unfounded claims about it.
We’re talking about an un-centered human being here…
Just because someone is smart in sciences and technology doesn’t mean they’re intelligent around other human beings. It’s the worst situation for everyone when you have people like that in charge of corporations and countries!
I’ve read and seen that Engineering does attract a lot of a certain type of person but that’s not everyone and not even all those “certain types of person” are bad people, either. Something happened with your stalker here or he didn’t get corrected early and often enough in life about his behavior and that’s why he is what he is today.
I believe he’s completely blind to what he’s doing and I don’t think any amount of polite correction or Mod-ding (Moderators, not the other type of “mod” we talk about here!) is going to change that.
That’s unfortunate for anyone who has to work with this guy in real life and CAN’T click to “Ignore” this guy.
I put him on “Ignore” right away when I saw what was going on with the guy in the PAS thread.
(Of course, I was one of the people who flagged his comments, too, before I “Ignored” him. You can’t let people like him run wild here… there’s enough of that going on elsewhere in SRK.)
But yeah, it gets really bad sometimes with a non-native speaker.
You can’t do anything about people who choose to believe what this guy says… Nobody can do much about ANYBODY who doesn’t read the FAQ’s/Stickies on SRK/Tech Talk, either, let alone the things some of us have written about the Hayabusa.
It’s unfortunate but that’s how people are.
I don’t know if you had his post on ignore so I’ll just quote the relevant section. My interpretation of his statement was that he didn’t say it was or was not ABS but that acetone test isn’t conclusive in determining the material.
Also, about usage of the word “break”, I, also, thought you were serious and didn’t realize it was a joke/jest. If he hadn’t responded and got you to clarify, I wouldn’t have known any better…
Sigh… I said I was going to lurk lol.
Edit: @GeorgeC This kind of post is exactly what causes people to go nuts. Condescending, thoughtless post, making an assumption about a person based on a few errant posts on an online forum. I’ve not had a single bad interaction with the guy. He’s been very polite with me even though I (ungratefully) rejected his compliment and critiqued his posts/behavior. Sorry but he isn’t entirely to blame here. People can let you say Hstick (JLF v1.5) is great like and like LS-32 but JLF is trash without issue; a statement I disagree with more than anything Agieze has written so far. I guess I’m one of those suckers then
@chaoslimits last post from me in this thread. I never discredited ANYTHING ageize said. The only thing that I agreed with was the fact that the Hayabusa does have better quality parts. I was using WTF I’m regards to d3v’s recommendation. That was also before I learned of the ignore feature. I never criticized ageize or you either. And its not as though I didn’t find his posts insightful, but I do have to agree with moonchilde that most of his posts didn’t address anything in refute, and of course my biggest issue was the simple fact that ageize didn’t even own the stick and made judgments of it based on marketing diagrams in which some things had obviously been a little different. People will have their opinions, which can’t be helped. I actually do own a Hayabusa and had to agree with most everyone here that the build quality is superior to some of its competitors. I’m sorry if I offended you in anyway, and I’m relatively confident you misunderstood some of my posts.
Except for the fact that ABS is soluble in acetone and some other ketone, and there isn’t an ABS that is acetone resistant. It was 100% clear I was talking about ABS, not nylon.
Also, by break, I meant fuck your shit up. It was exaggerating, but obviously you could polish the JLF actuator by hand or use a low speed setting on a rotary tool. But medium to high speeds gonna melt that shit, lol. For what it’s worth, I did high speed cutting on the Hayabusa body with no gumming of the rotary bit at all, which is a nice little property of delrin, it machines well
Yeah it was clear that you said it wasn’t ABS. If there is no ABS that is acetone resistant, then I guess it’s up to Agieze to say what he will about that. I have no idea lol (I didn’t know half of these materials till this thread popped up :tup: ); just reading what you guys write out of curiosity.
@ogrebites I never thought that you criticized me man (although I have no problem with being criticized lol). I was merely stating that people were going overboard by WTF’ing every thing the guy said especially when he directly answered a question I asked. Also, I have 2 Hsticks (I’ve had one since FE launch) and have been told that I’m “wrong” when I describe my problems with it (not that I particularly mind that either lol). For the record, I’ve read all his posts and he hasn’t once critiqued how the stick feels. His concern seems to be discussing the Engineering behind the stick and he critiqued JLF, JLW, and Seimitsu sticks as well. That doesn’t affect what I’m going to use at all.
Edit: BTW @Moonchilde unless I’m misunderstanding his post he didn’t say you put Nylon in acetone either.
Moonchilde is simply trying to turn my arguments around and is attempting in every post to put words in my mouth which I’ve never said. Why don’t you re-read my posts instead of making me repeat the same old thing over and over?
For example when did I ever say that “delrin would gum up bits”?? NEVER!
Here’s what I said:
Hmmmm is delrin a soft pliable plastic??? Come on. you and I know perfectly well that it’s a rigid and relatively hard plastic.
moonchilde says:
I’m curious to see you polish nylon, really. With everything you’ve said previously, you’d probably use the wrong methods to do so and honestly, you can’t just polish plastics like you’d polish the arm of an old wooden chair, plus the fact that the finish on bearing parts should be mirror smooth, not just “kind of ok” to the touch.
To avoid polishing via abrasive powders, what’s done in the industry with certain plastics is to have a mold made of finely polished steel so that when the plastic is cast into a semi finished preform, the molten plastic takes the finish of the polished steel surface and ends up when cooled with a perfect polish “as is”, the part is then finished when the unnecessary parts are cut off along with the flashes etc.
Some other times, the part is simply precision tooled from stck blocks of material with special bits, which gives no “markings” and leaves a smooth finish .
There are so many methods!!
Moonchilde also said
Yes there are, but resistant up to a certain point as I explained before! All are very sensitive to acetone. ABS = acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, which is a cross polymer and there are all sorts of grades, and according to the balance of nitrile on one side and butyl rubber on the other, some grades will dissolve easier than others in acetone not to mention the fillers that enhance certain chemical properties. All will dissolve but not at the same rate, which means that uninitiated people will think it may not be ABS if they end up with some sort of insoluble residue or if it dissolves too slowly compared to basic grades of ABS .
Bear in mind that the word “resistant”, commercially and industrially doesn’t mean “completely protected from at 100%” … think of “waterproof glue” or “water resistant plastic” . . they’re advertised as such but when reading the spec sheet, you notice “do not use below water level” for some glues and for plastics some spec sheets show you they can absorb water up to 2% and do not resist well to hydrolisis in certain conditions (exposure to UV or other factors). Water “resitant” watches with no indication of depth are simply… hand wash resistant. Take a dip in a pool and observe the watch in question get ruined.
So next time you read resistant do not think in a white or balck manner.
Creep resistant teflon has still a lot of creep, it is just resistant compared to standard grade.
You can’t just decide that if a plastic starts to dissolve in acetone, it means it’s ABS!! there are thousands of other plastics that dissolve also in acetone and could have a similar touch/feel/look.
don’t get me wrong I’m not mocking anyone, in fact it’s very easy to get fooled and to jump to conclusions, especially when there are some new plastics that “look” or “feel” like classic materials but that have a completely different chemical composition and mechanical properties.
Moonchilde I see you’re interested in the subject so please don’t just rely on a few easy assumptions you’ve seen somewhere and read more about the subject, and know that even people who have a diploma in the subject still read books every now and then to learn something new or keep up to date, or else they’ll end up “guessing” like everyone else concerning new materials.
@Chaoslimits, you were correct when saying that I never said Moonchild tested nylon in acetone.
here’s what I said in my old post:
The part about nylon had nothing to do with solvants, I was discussing the unrelated matter raised by Moonchilde about supposedly “soft” plastics being “poor quality” according to him, not knowing which designs could overcome or even use intentionally such properties.
I also said that the fact that the new HH actuator was being made of delrin and well made was cool. It’s odd the "wtf distributing people who seem to hate me didn’t see that remark which I’ve included in many posts … and continue to ignore that I never criticized the feel, playability or ease of replacement in standard sticks of the HH since I do not own one for the moment (how many times should I repeat it? )
I don’t know why I keep clicking his posts to see what he says, I guess it’s because I’m worried he’ll fuck up my thread
@Agieze a lot of the things you’re accusing me of I never wrote. I never wrote Delrin would gum up a rotary tool, for example. Why would I make such a claim after posting several times that delrin has a high hardness and low friction property that is ideal in the use of an actuator?? Please use some sense! Edit: I see you think I am accusing you of saying Delrin would gum up bits. No, I never wrote that at all… I don’t know why that was a point of argument for you. Oh well. This is why I’m done with this thread.
If English is not your first language PLEASE ask someone to clarify before you post inflammatory remarks about what they wrote!!
And, since you’re stalking me and down clicking a bunch of posts with disagrees or WTF, even stuff that has nothing to do with anything, I’m done with this thread. It’s pointless to explain to you why you are being marked in such a way since you’re still behaving aggressively and being insulting.
@ chaoslimits –
Whatever I said is NOT the main freaking point.
It’s what Agieze did to the thread and the stalking behavior towards Moonchilde.
This has been going on for over two days now since the fellow arrived… Brand new or retagged SRK member, I don’t know – what happened after he arrived was NOT Kosher.
IF you think that’s normal behavior and appropriate on the Web – anywhere(!) – then all I have to say is “WOW!” you really do live in a different world than I do!
I’m a troll? Because I dare defend myself from someone who turns everythig around because he quickly jumped to conclusions by assuming all sorts of wrong things about plastics such as a one step test to determine the type of polymer …only with acetone???
this is going on for the simple reason that Moonchilde:
-promised he’d ignore me but truly wants to flame things up by still reading the posts
-doesn’t admit having jumped to conlcusions based on wrong arguments, themselves coming from being interested in plastics but not reading enough about it.
A few quotes by moonchilde that directly contradict themselves, simply because one you seem to want to have me kicked out to impose your vision, on your thread and also becasue you didn’t look up your subject enough adn are making all sorts of strange connections between your arguments. Here are your quotes:
All this because in a previous post I talked about gumming up bits , which for unknown reasons got all excited. Here’s what I posted:
why did I post that on page 42 of this thread? because you assumed that soft plastics were prone to “cracking” and were not fit for bearing use in joysticks,being “inferior” . Overly soft and rubbery plastics -in general- present problems when being tooled, it’s a fact, but of course there are some exceptions, one property doesn’t always implicate another, thats’ the fun (and hassle) about materials science . I cited synthetic rubber material (butyl based) which is overly soft and pliable with low lubricity thus not a bearing material if you ask me) in my example which I will not quote again, because this is becoming tiresome. Sure you never spoke of butyl but I decided to, just for the sake of giving examples.
here’s what you said previously:
this whole paragraph by you is a complete misunderstanding of choice of materials and design. You isolate a property and take it as face value . choosing “Delrin” by itself doesn’t mean anything, it all depends against what you’re making it slide: cement? steel? wood? a plastic and if so which one? how are the parts finished ? In what type of configuration( even delrin in the wrong configuration may yield poor results!), in which design for which application (the type of aplpication disctates the range of load and speed) ?
you even assumed in previous posts it was preposterous to mate a bearing material with a dissimilar one with much higher or much lower coeff of friction, here’s the proof, and I’ll quote you directly, Moonchilde:
this particular assumtion of yours based on your lack of experience, with all due respect, shows you never really studied the subject, AT ALL. I even politely explained that it’s normal to ask yourself this sort of question when not having read the appropriate literature specialized in the matter.
**Any engineering book will show you the endless configurations possible and that having similar materials matched together isn’t always desirable from many points of view, but in some case can be not only acceptable but a very good solution. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DESIGN AND APPLICATION. How hard is it to put that into your head? Why being so aggressive and stubborn to pretend not to have read this sentence? **
you can have a soft , self lubing material matched to slide ( in the context of a PLAIN BEARING) against a much harder material sometimes even with a lower coeff of friction example teflon pivot in delrin housing, unreinforced basic grade teflon is soft and prone to abrasion but has the lowest coeff of friction of all polymers, while POM-H, standard delrin, has interestingly low coef of friction (but still much higher than TEFLON) and is on the contrary much harder and creeps a lot less than TEFLON too.
this doesn’t rule out delrin against delrin, or delrin against nylon, or even nylon against nylon or UHMWPE against delrin , the possibilities are endless and **only people who haven’t studied the matter will find “strange” to have a soft material sliding against a harder one , or a super high lubricity one rubbing against another with lower lubricity (but still relatively high) **.
I never said delrin against delrin was a stupid idea, quite the contrary, I even said that Bryan’s idea of custom actuator &gate out of delrin was cool. I only said the V cam system concept may present problems (MAY, not WILL, it’s a supposition) according to my analysis and to what is done in the industry in general, since in polymer industrial bearings, point and line contact ar generally avoided in plain bearings (such as joystick pivot) whereas they are often seen in rolling element bearings (plastic ball bearings that have both races and balls made of plastic for example).
how hard is it to understand the sentence : you can opt for completely different designs for the exact same application and many very different solutions can be envisioned. When you choose a different material, generally you have to change the design as well unless it’s direct subsittue for some more expensive material.
Sometimes there are some faulty designs (cost…costs…) , for example Sanwa’s choice of polycarb gate with a nylon actuator, I said like twenty times here on SRK that I didn’t agree with them and that having a different gate would make the same actuator last much longer, no need to think delrin against delrin would be the ONLY solution, it’s NOT the only solution, just a better solution amongst others, which in no shape or form would transform nylon into a “shitty soft plastic”. It’s not shitty any more if you have it in the RIGHT design, with the ADEQUATE dimensions, tolerances and appropriate finish& lubrication (if needed).
Enough with this now, it’s getting boring to repeat the same thing over and over and be accused without end of being condescending when in fact I’m trying to explain things clearly in layman’s terms. Even when I agree, I read flaming posts claiming I’m supposedly not enough in favor of a certain product. This is beyond ridiculous, I have the impression that unless I admit the Hayabusa is the “ultimate super duper cherry on the cake dream joystick beyond all joysticks” to please hardcore Hori fans or people who’ve been sponsored by Hori, I’m going to attract flaming hate posts like a magnet, even when I give my honest opinion on all designs pointing out what I consider flaws in sanwa, seimisu an hori products.
If I had read a commercial claim poorly explained with faulty tech explanations by either seimitsu or sanwa I would have ranted the same way, I’m not “paid” to go against Hori but it’s almost evident some people are diehard fans hating other rival big name companies, or simply seeking sponsorshipor being already in the endorsing game.
I don’t understand why some fans don’t get it that commercial claims are just commercial claism: part truth part BS. That’s what most companies do to various degrees, the amount of BS all depends on WHICH public they’re aiming at : pros in the industry? general consumers? young public? retired seniors? others?
Think about it, and accept that claims are what they are, just claims and I’m no justice bringer chiming in to “destroy” a brand. Hori is all excited about their experimental and novel “V cam system” and as I said previously… get a hard honest look at the PAGES of commercials loaded with graphs, tech “interviews” and exceprts of “studies” that are often coming from AFFILIATED and SPONSORED labs who’ll always speak positively and extrapole right and left … in the nutrition supplement industry for example. Hori isn’t proceeding in this manner, and I just felt I had to chime in to warn gamers to be cautious with a certain claim and to not take it as face value as presented in the commercial, and also to set thrings straight about certain aspects poorly explained by some members who are genuinely interested in the subject but jump to conclusions constantly based on their lack of knowledge in materials engineering, making weird connections and imposing their ideas, refusing to see what is common practise today in the industry.
ps: I hope this business about me not being able to write clearly in English is a joke. I do make some mistakes but I’m pretty sure what I’m saying is clear and easily understandable. Is it a “last resort” argument to point out people by assuming they’re not experts in the English language ?
@GeorgeC if you actually read my post (in which I described his initial behavior), maybe you didn’t understand what I said. Also, I don’t think stalking means what you think it does.
Overall, this thread lately is a display of the important need for accurate reading comprehension.
This second statement is not an accusation. At best it’s an attempt to add context and at worst it’s a correction of a statement. If you read the quote, it’s hard to tell it’s in jest.
Again, the first statement is not an accusation. It’s comparison between the result of Hstick actuator machining with the previously quoted, expected, outcome of what would be expected to happen to JLF actuator.
This is what happens when people get angry and miss-read posts. And it cuts both ways. On an online forum it doesn’t hurt anyone but this sort of thing gets people killed in their professional lives…
Thanks! I found the option for it