Has anyone noticed a slight lip in the bottom of the balltop (where it screws in) if you’re using a balltop besides the one it comes with?
Not at home to check but I didn’t notice anything with a Seimitsu ball. Can haz pic?
Pic plz 
I can’t really comment because I have 2 Hori ball tops and a Seimitsu ball top. None of them are installed on my stick though, I mainly use bat tops.
@Moonchilde You two obviously seem to know what you’re talking about (I have no materials knowledge so everything is taken with a grain of salt). If someone makes an incorrect claim and you have the “proof” or reasoning to shut it down please go ahead and do so.
Forum noob came in here swinging and slinging mud but vitriol he got was just as bad IMO. He’s gonna calm down and follow etiquette sooner or later or get banned anyway.
I’m not pointing fingers at you but like I’ve said before, it seems that anti Hstick talk is a no-no in TT right now. Also, the guy has had several critiques of HORI, Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks.
I’d hope that two of the most insightful guys on here right now could somehow squash this ;-;.
Yes I’ve noticed the same thing. If you use different balltops there is sometimes a gap between the bottom of the balltop and the top of the shafts flat piece. My balltops are all mixed up so i can’t tell which ones I’m using but I suspect that it’s the Seimitsu balltops that don’t fit on the Hayabusa (I have one LS-32 and had the same issue).
Edit: If topics belonged to or were controlled by OPs maybe the internet would be a better place lol.
I’ll check mine with the Seimitsu top when I get home. I’m pretty OCD though. I think I would have noticed.
Or it might be much, much worse. LoL.
I don’t mind if people critique the Hayabusa at all, as long as it’s constructive and conductive to discussion. You know, real legitimate stuff, not arguing about the semantics or marketing speak used to describe the design of a part of the stick.
In your case, you have a legitimate problem with the stick that we sadly can’t figure out. It doesn’t help that we have no physical presence so we obviously can’t do anything other than take your word that for whatever reason, it isn’t working even if it works for us. Oh, that reminds me, will you be at EVO this year? If so I’d love to see your Hayabusa if you still have it at that point, unless you sell it off before then. I’ll be there and will try to get some time at the MadCatz modding booth to meet and greet some folks.
In his case, he’s ranting about a marketing diagram and then getting angry at us for talking about the superior build of Hayabusa over other sticks we’ve used, with no observations of his own to add because he does not have the stick. It’s fine if he didn’t agree that it wasn’t higher quality if he actually had the stick, since that would be his opinion I guess based on him taking time to check out the build quality of the stick.
In fact, I’ve been a little critical myself. I said I wouldn’t use a stock Hayabusa, but once modded it’s my favorite stick. For stock sticks, I guess I like Seimitsu a little better because of the tighter springs they use. Irrelevant anyway, since I tweak all my sticks to a degree.
Yeah I should be at EVO and will bring one with me. I am really reluctant to let go of my Hsticks; I really enjoy playing on it (till I miss qcb or miss an electric and get forward dash rage). I’m hoping it’s something that can be rectified cos I’d rather play on Hstick than JLF or LS-32 right now. Any luck with your custom gate? I would with AutoCAD if that’s something you need/want help with.
Also I didn’t specifically mean you when I mentioned the backlash. There was even one guy who didn’t have an Hstick yet mouthing off at me -_-.
Well in those cases, those people are being dumb. Plenty of that on the net so it doesn’t surprise me.
Yeah, bring it to EVO. If I don’t have the gates launched by EVO I should have at least a few prototypes, maybe enough to give a few away.
Sorry got sidetracked on the thread. That being said I’m even more interested in what you have to offer. Hopefully some love comes to the H-stick as well.
@Moonchild any chance those not going could get a prototype? 
Not really
I can agree with 100% certainty that the H’s actuator is much tougher than the JLF’s.
So… the rumors are true.
Hori released the Hayabusa to a parts vendor!
The Sanwa and Hori Hayabusa balltops are pretty much the same. The difference is in the width of the metal screw insert placed into the plastic. The metal screw insert is thicker and hence the Hayabusa has more metal in it than the Sanwa. The flatness in the area around the screw-in point is about the same for the Hayabusa and Sanwa balltop handles… Sanwa has more colored plastic in that flat area versus more metal for the Hayabusa flat spot.
Seimitsu balltop handles have about the same amount of metal in them as the Sanwa balltop handles but a larger/broader flat area of plastic around the shaft screw area. Hence, Seimitsu balltop handles are actually a little bit shorter in height than the other two brands.
As for screwing onto handles, the Hayabusa, Seimitsu, and Sanwa balltop handles screw on with the same amount of resistance. I’ve noticed a bit more resistance screwing on my Butteroj balltop handle onto shaft handles than the other brands but it installs fine and stays on. That extra resistance appears on the JLF, LS-32, LS-40, AND Hayabusa from my own experiments so it’s not a case of the ballhandle behaving peculiarly on one particular brand or shaft model design.
I haven’t tried screwing on a Seimitsu balltop onto the Hayabusa… I have fewer Seimitsu balltops than Sanwa’s as it is. (I have mostly bubbletop handles as far as Seimitsu brand is concerned.) Have not experienced difficulties with Sanwa handle installation on Seimitsu or vice-versa myself since I have both Sanwa solid color and meshball handles on my LS-joysticks. I wouldn’t expect an issue with the Hayabusa handle since it’s pretty much a JLF shaft clone but I’ll double-check on my end, too.
When finishing overly soft and/or pliable plastics, any tech will tell you they won’t break, they gum up the tools, so this assertion is beyond weird. some soft plastics do crack, some grades of high friction butyl based plastics do, but they crack in certain conditions and are never polished, they’re not meant to, they make high traction parts with them.
If you were finishing a brittle plastic like say some solid polystyrene thin walled item, THIS would eventually break if mishandled , not nylon. “Breaking nylon” while polishing, GEE WHIZ what a big fat joke!
I repeated billions of times on this thread that I agreed that the JLF actuator seems of lesser quality in terms of finsih as for the grade of plastic being “inferior” it’s a difficult matter. Being mated with a polycarbonate gate in the JLF the nylon may wear off too quickly, Sanwa should have mated their parts more appropriately, as fort the Hayabusa gate being made of PC as well, I have doubts even if I don’t have it, because usually in the joystick industry they don’t go trhough the hassle of having solid coloured PC for parts, they opt for translucid/transparent (as Sanwa).
I prefer Paradisearcade’s custom solution of having a POM-H gate, delrin against delrin is not contraindicated and can last very long.
Moonchildes ssems to classify plastics in a very childish way: soft means shit and hard is excellent. only a beginner could say this.
As for which plastic dissolves in what solvant, there are so many grades now, some are UV stabilized, some not, some are filled, some are microporous with a liquid lubricant (some bearing phenolics are), some have additives to RESIST to some SOLVANTS, etc . So dipping a part in aceton is not a definitive test. Sometimes you simply need a spec sheet or access to a lab to do dozens of tests, dot.
Man, there are like HUNDREDS of different grades of polyamide (nylon) , so if you end up one day with a softer or harder nylon, it’s only normal.
Now don’t get me wrong, I think a delrin actuator is cool, I never stated otherwise, so cut it saying I’m against Hori’s actuators. I’m against you stating weird things only, such as the Hori joystick being perfect and Sanwa being a POS, which is not only exagerated but based only on personal feelings. some aspects have been revised, which is a good thing, while others are highly subject to debate ( V cam system, too young a concept to say if it will really last that long, only time will tell and still predictions can me made about overly minimal contact in polymer bearings which could lead to premature skidding issues ).
Some Hori fans think that because a product works perfectly in its early days that it will last forever.
the way the V cam is presented and explained by Hori, it is clear the theoretical line of contact ( the circle which is the contact line between the spherical pivot and conical housing) will become in real life some HERTZIAN STRESS contact areas , which will be very small areas (due to line contact) on which all the load from the handling of the joystick will concentrate, : usually in bearings it leads to brinelling or galling of the housing & pivot, even if low coef of friction material like delrin is used, because were not dealing with rolling elements…but DIRECT SLIDING elements (the same zone exposed to stress is continuously subject to the same stress during the sliding, whereas in a ball bearing for example, the element rolls and new zones are supporting the load and friction , one could understand this as a sort of “refreshing rate of fatigue” for the rolling element, alas for sliding parts they wear out much faster.
BUT, I don’t know what plastics & grades are used exactly beyond some more or less thoughtful guessing from everyone including myself so it’s up to “time will tell” to see how fast it will wear: the real life “lab” will be the gamers !
I’m surprised because it’s the first time I see this type of polymer pivot, usually the direct sliding bearings are cylindrical
Back to the actuator business:
Fluoropolymers which have the lowest coeffs of friction amongst all polymers up to now, even lower than delrin, CREEP a lot and are very prone to ABRASION unless filled with a mineral charge or fibers that will boost the abrasion resistance which is almost unacceptable when in “pure grade”.
Even then, protected by a filling mixed in the polymer, fluoropolymers (like TEFLON) are still considered “soft”, yet are employed A LOT in the industry: it all depends AGAINST WHICH other part in a bearing the teflon (whatever grade) will be matched with: that’s the R&D 's job, they’re supposed to have an estimation of how many YEARS THE PRODUCT IS INTENDED TO LAST AND , and from there on, according to the use and application of the item along with financial considerations, they opt for a certain "match " of materials:
Which part becomes sacrificial and more prone to wear is sometimes dictated by economic reasons too, and sometimes also by ease of replacement by the customers.
What is more convenient to replace? A small pivot, an actuator, a gate, the whole housing?
Generally in R&D, ussually the housing is made in a way that it is supposed to last, so if a rubbing SMALL part has more abrasion resistance than the housing or a larger part (such as a agte), ussually a part that wears off more quickly will be chosen for the said EASILY REPLACEABLE part.
There are other considerations as well, and it happens that some interesting, relatively low cost solutions that would make a product last quite long… go down the drain because an even cheaper solution is chosen to cut the costs in half , reducing the life expectancy of the product by a certain factor, the product becomes a cheapo “ready to die quickly” item, housing, bearings and all.
Look at modern big name video & audio material and the choice of components (even if it has nothing to do with bearings), they’re not designed to last 30 years like the stuff designed in the 80’s by some thoughtful big names, now it’s a question of only a small number of years of use because “you’ll probably get bored and buy something similar and more trendy pretty soon”.
you simply cannot decide that because a bearing material is soft, that it’s “shit”. It’s shit only if matched with the wrong material in a bearing configuration, which means a poor design. Other than that the same material could end up in a very long lasting product.
Make a gate of bearing grade TORLON for example, which is chemically close to nylon ( torlon is a polyamide-imide) but superior by far to nylon and put it on a Sanwa JLF or JLW to replace the PC (polycarbonate) original gate: the original “crappy” JLF actuator will last longer because the TORLON gate will not eat up the actuator as fast AND is shock resistant as well (along with being a true bearing material like DELRIN ; PC not being a low friction material nor designed for use in quality bearings).
If using a delrin actuator, you could eventually use a gate made of polished 302 st steel but repeated shock would not be the best , even for delrin, not to mention the cost of such a gate. Designing is not just “let’s take the hardest stuff, it’s always gonna be the best solution”. Matching correctly materials in a correct design is the only solution. different designs call for different mathing and sometimes very dissimilar materials can lead to a long product life and in others the exact same materials can work as well, it all depends of the design.
If engineers thought like Moonchilde, they’d NEVER use any fluoropolymer in bearings while in reality it is one of the most used products today in polymer bearings along with POM and other exotic filled bearing plastics.
Let’s hope this explanation clears up things this time and show I’m not some basic “anti Hori” nutcase: after all, I do critic A LOT Sanwa and Seimitsu in my posts on certain points but it’s never enough for Hori addicts. Very odd.
I wasn’t angry at anyone, it started raining meatballs on the thread when I said the V cam system was according to what I’ve studied not a great solution , as oposed to the great promises made by Hori. As for the “superior” design, some aspects seem EFFECTIVELY SUPERIOR while others are SIMILAR AND EVEN INFERIOR. everything I’ve said that is negative concerns aspects that CAN BE DISCUSSED even if not having the joystick, I was discussing choices of materials with forum members and theoretical wear issues as PRESENTED ON THE OFFICIAL ADVERTISEMENT. IF I buy the product, then I’ll speak about feel, ease of installation and playability which can only be discussed IF I BUY IT.
Did I ever criticize the feel, ease of installation in commercial stick cases & playability ? NOT ONCE.
Agieze, what is creep? You’ve mentioned it a few times but I can’t seem to find a definition of it.
Thanks.
I’m sorry I should have explained that, it’s a type of permanent deformation when you subject a part to stress and wear, but not the type of deformation such as crack, flake, tearing or others that present a more or less “clean” separation when being stressed into many “bits” : on the contrary, creep is a plastic deformation where groups of molecules slowly migrate under stress and the geometry of the part changes a lot as a result.
Think of a part as if it were made of a hard grade of sculpting putty and gently pressing this part against a hard surface to imitate its movement in a bearing: after several squeezes or rolls, the stressed zone will heat and material will get “squished towards the sides” and thin out in some places while thickening other zones. Depending on the type of playdoh/putty , you’ll notice you’ll need a different amount of pressure to deform it, same thing for polymers, some types creep a lot while other resist creep almost indefinitely and wear differently (chip or flake for example)
, with bits of material “going away” , lost as powder or chunks,not still making part of the piece subject to stress.
now in certain conditions (such as when I talked about the SS32 steel plate “eating” the actuator), you can have creep cumulated with other forms of wear that permit removal of matter…when you go beyond a certain level of induced stress : many players saw what happened in some sticks and some keyboards with the strange “dust” being present after years of use due to intense playing and excessive rubbing of parts in a configuration of “plain bearings” (what I called previously sliding bearings" ) . It’s not always “household” dust, it’s the parts literally sanding off one another with time with the cumulation of debris worsening the matter.
Ceramics creep little and shatter, flake, break and crack instead, while UHMW polyethylene creeps much more and is more difficult to “break” (almost impssible unless in certain special temperatures ) but can be cleanly cut.
Almost all materials can be subject to creep under some conditions and it all depends on these conditions. Teflon for example creeps easily: you don’t need really particular conditions to see this happen, it happens almost all the time and only well thought designs will limit or prevent excessive creep and lead to very slow creep .
All pure teflon parts always end up wobbling one day or another, when they’ve been deformed too much due to creep in a bearing.
Creep is not malleability (gold is malleable for example and can be indefinitely deformed almost even by hand) or even ductility, but in the idea there’s something similar as materials are deformed without breaking in bits .
A cylinder of teflon for example after being stressed in the middle during a rolling action on its central portion will end up with thickened ends and a thinned center, the material migrates outwards and is said to “climb” towards the egdes (there are other technical terms depending on the type of material prone to creep and type of stress). The part may end up elongated too.
I tried to say it as “layman” as I could.
It’s not BS. It’s an interesting read. I just don’t feel that it is all that relevant. The tolerances of these materials are way higher than anything that you could put it through in this particular application under normal use.
Edit: @Agieze - I think you might want to start a thread about plastics that are commonly used in arcade sticks. “The Plastics Materials Thread” or something. I feel that you are diluting this thread and side lining the true purpose of it.
I disagree. If a claim is made that the actuator is higher quality than x manufacturer/stick, then understanding why and what causes wear is valuable info if you want to know (and I do).
I asked a question about creeping and he answered it and gets “WTF’d”. I expected more from TT honestly…
Except that he has never seen the HSS in person, let alone touched it. Most of the things that he is saying about it are even more speculative than anything that Moon has said. He knows about materials in general but I think he is way off if he thinks that the amount of pressure and friction generated in this application is enough to really break down the materials as he is describing. A joystick isn’t a space shuttle.
This is just silly. Very done with this thread now.