Hori Hayabusa unboxing + mods!

Tech Talk
41

@Moonchilde
Both Sanwa and Seimitsu have QA issues.
I definitely think the spring tension tends to vary a bit on their product. That seems to be true for all the mainline joysticks… this pops up again and again with the LS-32 and JLF spring.
I have tried different spring balances but it’s never consistent stick to stick! I’ll have some that turn out fine/about perfect, otherwise that are only slightly higher-tension… and then there are the issues with the LS-40 and its microswitches/lower tension with the LS-32 spring!

I got into a situation late last month which was very embarrassing. I sort of shot off my mouth on the Zippyy/LS-32 clone and almost got PAS into a situation there. I had to do damage control as quickly as I could and be diplomatic about it.
No question, though, in my mind that the Zippyy clone is overall not as good as the LS-32/stock model. For the price, it’s very good for what it is BUT there are components on it that are to my way of thinking inferior to the LS-32: the Zippyy spring, microswitches, and spring retainer are NOT as good as the LS-32’s. The good news is that this is ALL fixable with stock LS-32 parts. It probably will dissuade me from getting Zippyy’s in the near-future because I know better… I think they’d still be decent with even a modest higher-tension spring mod but they are really not at the full level of a stock LS-32 and definitely not as convenient to install as the LS-32-01 because of the need to swap out the mounting plate (fortunately they’re compatible with Seimitsu SS Mounting Plate!) and the need for a harness converter. I confirmed that the converters on market for the Crown CWJ-303FK work just fine with the Zippyy and presumably all the fastener type/0.187 tab LS-joysticks.

Generally, I think Seimitsu’s build is fine. I have good days/I have bad days with the joysticks and most of that I blame on lack of sleep and concentration. The product all have quirks and I’m sure something will eventually pop up with the Kuros and Hayabusa, too.
What I do think is obvious to anyone that’s played with enough of these parts for any length of time is that although Sanwa may have an edge in general pushbutton build (the solid colors), the JLF is not the best-performing joystick. It’s at best a Ford Escort! (It’s not quite as bad as the Pinto… At least it doesn’t blow up in your hands and burn you! It also still has resale value like a Toyota…)
The JLF is a cheap solution to a problem and it’s conveniently small and well-designed for what it is. That doesn’t disguise the fact that for you, me, and many other people that it’s far from being the perfectly honed joystick that some vendors say it is. Again, I think it’s horribly mediocre/average at best performance-wise. It’s really in Hori’s best future interests to promote the Hayabusa because it’s very good product and to a few of us at least well above the JLF!
As great as releasing the Hayabusa lever on its own is for Hori, the future of that product is with the HRAP cases and NOT the Fighting Edge which could come and go like the HRAP VLX did. [details=Spoiler](There are things about Fighting Edge that I don’t care for the more I hear about it… I think I’m getting a better deal for my money on the mainline HRAP with a PCB that actually has some features I might appreciate on my console’s menu bar… The LED on the FE isn’t what I think LED should be. I think Mad Catz scored a major hit and did LED right on the TE-2!)[/details] The HRAP’s are where I think will get the buzz the Hayabusa needs. Obviously, not enough people bought the Fighting Edge if the news about Hayabusa is still traveling so slowly 18 months after its debut in the FE! This is something Hori really has to promote even moreso than the FE in my opinion. I don’t know that the Kuro will make much of a dent in the pushbutton market but the Hayabusa has the potential to establish a higher standard for joystick levers at the very least.
That doesn’t mean I still don’t love some of the Seimitsu product with all its quirks… They’re like the SEGA of arcade part manufacturers! :slight_smile: In the meantime, I hope they don’t go out of business or do some really stupid things that make the LS-58 look like a good business decision!

42

I think the thing is, Hayabusa is a modern lever. You can tell from the higher end plastics and everything that it was made today and not 20 years ago. Delrin and lexan? The quality design to it speaks of modern. New cam housing, high end plastic parts selected for the purpose of working against friction and taking abuse, and so on. I know that LS-32 was the original stick in SF2 cabs in Japan. If it works, then don’t fix it, which is true in this case. Seimitsu got so many things right with the design. But, I think the Hayabusa has brought something truly new to the table in respect to quality and what a modern lever should be while being faithful to the feel of tried and true.

Oh, I also think it stands to point out that Seimitsu does things cheap. I don’t mean their parts suck, the LS-40 is a really good quality stick with high quality parts. What I mean is that their most recent lever, the LS-58, brought absolutely nothing new to the table and used the same old parts from the same molds that have been in use since the 90’s! They had a chance to do something new, innovate, make a v-cam housing, compete with something brand new. We got a LS-56 with a LS-33 PCB and a lower tension spring. Nothing was new with the stick, same old pivot as the LS-56 and LS-32 from the 90’s, same gate, same body, everything was the same. They should have been the ones to blow away the competition but didn’t take a chance, and took the low risk route and used parts they already have stocked up in their warehouses in Japan.

The sad thing is there are still going to be masses of people who won’t like Hayabusa because it isn’t JLF, and JUST BECAUSE of that reason alone. I know people who play on JLF because that’s what everyone else uses. The oft quoted reason is in the event their stick breaks down at a tourney, which I guess is good logic but most stick repair is easy to do unless it’s electrical, in which a back up PCB with screw terminals usually helps.

Oh well, their losses.

I wish @HORI (U.S.A.) Inc was more active.

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I can’t argue with you about the LS-58. I thought it was a huge mistake, too!
(I’ve got one, but what of it? Might be sold sometime later this year! I’m keeping the LS-32’s and LS-40’s, though!)

As far as people’s attitudes go – what’s new?
The longer I live, the more I realize people get into ruts and are afraid to vary their routine and try anything new.
THAT and this is one hell of an expensive hobby to get into!
$25 for a joystick lever, a game, date/movie, or anything else… It’s all a balancing act and something’s gotta give. I think there’s a good reason or two why people don’t generally own more than 1-2 joysticks tops! LOL
Most SRK members are broke kids in high school or college… they just don’t have the money, time, and inclination to experiment with this stuff. The Tech Talk is its own tiny island within its own Micronesia that has a million other islands. I think that point gets forgotten sometimes… I know I’ve made that same mistake in many other areas of interest.

I’m sure if Markman really liked the Hayabusa and could get it into Mad Catz joystick cases, he probably would. He kind of stuck out his neck with the K-stick, though, and I don’t know that’s paid off too well… (I just think the K-sticks have their own issues and are niche market just like American/iL/Happ parts are in general.)
I doubt Hori will license/produce Hayabusa units for Mad Catz any time soon, though. It might actually be a good move and earn them some money, too, but MC is their chief competitor now…
It would be nice to see a HIGHER standard established for controllers, though. It’s not going to happen with Seimitsu or the K-sticks obviously…!

I HATED the JLF… Loved the Sanwa buttons but that control lever was absolutely frustrating. It’s a lot like Nintendo product – cute-looking but frustrating to use and designed for anyone BUT a hardcore gamer! LOL
(God, I hate Nintendo controllers. Only Sega ever made general controllers that were good across multiple genres. Even though Sony’s Dual Shocks have gotten better generation after generation, there are still game genres you really can’t play with the stupid DS pads!)
After I got my HRAP 3 SE, I was sold on the LS-32 and within a few months started the process of weeding out my JLF’s and replacing them with Seimitsu joysticks. I only wish Hori had produced more Seimitsu Edition joysticks but ce la vie!

Yeah, Seimitsu would be better off re-engineering the LS-32 and making something new but I think they’re afraid it’ll cost too much money and that they may lose business from arcades that use their product. As I hear and learn more about Japan, they’re actually far more technologically conservative than most people in the West think. They’ve been slower to adopt the Internet and the country is nowhere near as otaku-crazy/anime freakland as people in the US think. (Disney is way more popular over there, too, than anything like Akira or Ghost in the Shell. There are perennial favorites like Gundam and Macross but even that stuff is mainly popular amongst a niche audience… a niche audience that buys a LOT of tie-in product like models, toys, and videogames based on those shows.) Ironically, I think Seimitsu has tried to make a better LS-32 in the past (LS-40 being the first attempt to “re-invent” the LS-32) but in the process they’ve created whole joystick lines with distinct characters and one joystick design that’s arguably redundant and just plain dumb to keep in production (again, the LS-58)! I really only have use for two of the Seimitsu joysticks… The others are too sensitive (LS-56/-58, no experience with LS-55) or JLF-like (LS-33).

I still think Hori was smart to model the Hayabusa as much as it did off the JLF. Commonality is not always a bad thing… It saves some anxiety and definitely simplifies things for the people who will modify and customize their Hayabusa units (with new balltops, shaftcovers, etc.). The main thing they had to reinvent was the base and pivot point and it seems like it paid off. I was a bit on-the-edge about the control lever and still not fully sold on it after 45 minutes. I changed my mind after the last session I had with it on SSF2T HD. It definitely performed better than the JLF ever would!

44

Yeah, I agree. I hope the K edition of the SE worked out for MarkMan. I know they didn’t make a lot of them but I hope they’ve sold what they made. Hori supplying parts for MadCatz would actually be good since they’d have contracts for more manufacturing of the part and that makes them money outside of their market base. It creates a new market for them. I think MadCatz is much more popular stateside, right? So I don’t think it would be a bad idea, but, the small price to pay for that is the incentive to get Hori sticks goes down a little. But, that should be offset by people who are loyal to the MadCatz brand who were never going to buy Hori sticks to begin with by the money those people would be making Hori for their parts being stock.

Just out of curiosity, what was too sensitive about the 56? It has the same engage and throw as the 40, as it just too small or the tension odd? I also found it not as nice to play on as the 40, but I think that’s down to it being so compact that it can’t really handle higher tension springs and aluminum tops as well as the 40 can.

Anyway, that’s a bit off topic.

Hayabusa is such a great stick. The more I play on it, the more I enjoy the quick snappy response and fast, accurate returns to neutral. It takes some getting used to, I think I’ve sub-consciously altered my play style to do that work manually rather than rely on the stick. So far, the 55 spring feels amazing, I think if people can’t find something comfortable with JLF springs then they should look to the 55 spring. BTW, you playing on PSN when it comes to SSFTHD? I’m on there sometimes.

45

After I posted I went and played some more. I tested a 1mm OS actuator. The engage was about as short as you could make it without getting input issues. You have to let the lever go all the way, and I mean ALL THE WAY, back to neutral for the switch to turn off. It’s a bit too extreme for my liking. There is a lot of throw after the switch engages too. A short or even no throw gate would be ideal with a 1 mm OS actuator. That is if it was comfortable for you. If you hyper-ventilated on the lever you would probably wave dash.

46

I have an LS-58 which is pretty much a redesigned LS-56…

I think the joystick is just a bit hyper-sensitive to inputs. It’s like an overly sensitive LS-40.
Oh, I felt the joystick was WORSE with the stock LS-58 spring. It handles better with a stronger LS-56 spring (3 lb, PAS version) for me but it still has its quirks.
I sometimes encounter control issues with the LS-40 by putting TOO MUCH force into it but I never had the issue of it being as hyper-sensitive as the LS-58. It’s hard sometimes to put these things into words because it’s more of a matter “feel.” You can get away with almost putting too much into the LS-32 by comparison and still perform well. The joystick has its issues but it’s almost always comfortable for me… I can’t say about the LS-40 all the time, and the LS-58’s in general been much worse.

(Yeah, I think I could justify another Hayabusa buy with a sell-off of that LS-58! It’s unlikely I’ll ever buy another LS-58 or -56 for that matter… It’s never entered my mind to sell off any of my LS-32’s or LS-40’s. So far, I’ve only sold off JLF’s.)

The LS-58 pretty much killed my desires to go beyond what the LS-40 is generally capable of.
I’m glad to see that the Hayabusa is within that comfort zone, too. It really seems to have the best of the LS-32/LS-40 traits without their worst habits and defects, too.

I may change my mind a little as time goes on but it surprised me how much better the Hayabusa worked for me the second time around using it… I’ve never had improvement that rapid with any other control device, period!

47

Damn it, guys. Now I have to get my hands on one of these.

48

When you have the spare cash, the Hayabusa is definitely worth a test spin.

I know more people want to give it a test but for whatever reasons they can’t or won’t.
If it’s a money issue, that’s understandable. If however, you’re waiting to see this stick appear in a new joystick case that’s NOT the Fighting Edge, you might be in for a wait unless Hori releases HRAP’s with Hayabusa’s levers in them for the US market. I suspect something like that will happen if and when a major fighting game debuts on both PS4 and XBox One. We may be all but completely done with major joystick releases for this past generation… I think that’s the reason for the dry-up in Mad Catz TE’s and the overall “bleh” state of the hardware this past year. One can only hope the Hayabusa release signals something better for the near-future because it’s definitely needed IMHO.
For now, you have to buy the Hayabusa by itself or get a Fighting Edge or import one of the new HRAP V3 models with Hayabusa and Kuro parts (Amazon.jp exclusive I think) after they get released for import…

I was disappointed with what happened with the LS-58 and K-sticks… They just didn’t really do much or innovate anything. To be blunt, those sticks have issues. You can read threads on these and see why many people passed on them.

In a fair world where people gave new things a fair shake, the Hayabusa would be setting the new control lever standard… I have no more to say about the JLF or the Seimitsus. I’ve said what I care to say and expressed what I think about those.
I’ve had another spin with the Hayabusa this morning on emulators on my PC and it’s worked out well on fighters and my favorite sidescroller, Area 88/UN Squadron.

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My biggest hurdle is that I’m not a Japanese nor a US citizen.

50

Anyone have the experience of not being able to accurately hit diagonals on the Hayabusa? I tend to get f, f when I want f, df and that doesn’t seem to happen on stock and modded JLFs, LS32 or LS40.

51

I want to try a hayabusa joystick ;__; does horiusa/hori offer International Shipping? :frowning:

52

No problems hitting diagonals here. In fact I have the opposite experience.

After using the Sanwa JLF for so many years. I feel that the Hayabusa is much more accurate when pulling of executions.

The Hayabusa responds much faster in my opinion.

53

Hori USA is continental US only.

54

@torta @emphatic where are you guys living?

@chaoslimits no problems with diagonals here

55

I’m in Sweden.

56

I’m hitting diagonals okay on the Hayabusa (hereafter referred to interchangeably as the “H-stick”) now… I was getting consistent Dragon Punches in SSF2T HD on the PS3 the other day. That’s IMHO one of the better hard games to use to gauge joystick performance. SF IV by comparison is a slower-paced game and not as good to use to assess joysticks.

I came from 4+ years of experience with the LS-32 and LS-40 after converting from the JLF which has numerous design and performance shortfalls IMHO.
The Hayabusa is more solid than the LS-series joysticks. It has the best performance traits without the “gotchas” that the LS-joysticks occasionally exhibit.

It’s hard to explain but I think Moonchilde’s right on this point –
Both Sanwa and Seimitsu have some deplorable quality/build issues on their joysticks. Part of this is a tradition of adhering to proven designs and parts; the other part is intellectual/corporate inflexibility and use of poor quality materials in the production of the joysticks.
I just had my worst experience with the JLF today… I was trying to remove the TP-1 Mounting Plate to confirm its compatibility with the Hayabusa. I ended stripping ALL the mounting screws which hasn’t happened before. I’ve had instances where I ruined a screw but NEVER all four of them! That would have been a day ender for me but either a) OCD kicked in or b) I’m too stubborn to give up! I still managed to remove all those damn screws through a combination of HARD downward pressure on my screwdriver, using needle nose pliers to rotate the screws from inside the inner JLF body, AND drilling with a Dremel threw the last most stubborn screw that couldn’t be removed with the pliers. It was hell for a few hours there but I managed it.

The good thing is that TP-1 screws are easily replaceable. You can buy a set of replacements from Focus Attack ($1.25 when I looked) OR search for them at Tru Value/Ace Hardware. (Home Depot and Lowes do NOT carry these screws. The smallest metric screws I saw at Home Depot were M4 and I needed M3’s!)

It’s sort of hard to describe what goes on with the LS-joysticks. Moonchilde says the switches occasionally display glitches. I dunno… All I do know is that occasionally I feel like I’m “fighting the joysticks” instead of playing the game but that happens more often when I’m stressed or tired. I’m generally okay with the LS-joysticks. My experience has been more positive with them than the JLF in general. It was a huge surprise to me that the Hayabusa seemed to get easier to get a handle on with practice. Very rapid improvement that I haven’t experienced with any other control stick INCLUDING the LS-joysticks. I was so convinced that part of why the LS-joysticks were better was the levered microswitches but the Hayabusa has tabs like the JLF! I think the Hayabusa is just better built and designed now with higher-grade materials in construction. It won’t make me dump all my Seimitsu’s (although I’m looking at selling the LS-58 and maybe both Zippyy’s in the future) but I’m seriously contemplating buying a few more Hayabusa’s when I have spare cash in the future and keeping them for future installs/joystick upgrade.

My sole (for the moment now) Hayabusa ended up with a new, permanent home in my PS3 Hori Soul Calibur V/HRAP N3 SA joystick.

Add this to the known Hayabusa database:

Compatible joystick bases…
I tested and confirmed that the Hayabusa is installationally compatible (using the stock Hori Mounting Plate) with
HRAP 3 (vanilla grade; unlimited black version or the Amazon.jp White HRAP 3)
(NOTE: licensed HRAP’s like the Arcana Heart 2 use the same mounting plate as the HRAP 3 so Hayabusa
installations are possible in these ‘HRAP lites’)
HRAP 3 SA/SE (goes without saying since it installs in the standard JLF area)
HRAP 2/HRAP 2 SA (same mounting plate as the HRAP 3 SA/SE editions)
Mad Catz Tournament Round 1 and 2 TE’s (may need to rotate the PCB for 30mm pushbutton clearance issues)
HRAP N3 SA/Soul Calibur V joystick

Modification Necessary
(1) Agetec Joystick – swap the H-stick mounting plate and use the JLF TP-1 instead
(see shmups/MKL Agetec mod for details on how to create a universal anchor point in the Agetec base for
the JLF and LS-series joysticks; this mod will also make the Hayabusa compatible with the Agetec base)
(2) Non-universal HRAP base mods; must remove the Hori default anchor in the Tekken 5 (American edition) joystick and create a new anchor/mount area with screws… this is similar to the MKL Agetec Mod… the Hayabusa will install with its flat mounting plate like the JLF TP-1 and Seimitsu RE: Mounting Plate…

*The Hayabusa will probably also be fine in the HRAP V3. The HRAP V3/VX uses the same mounting plate design as the HRAP N3/NX.

I was concerned about clearance issues in the HRAP N3 SA but those proved to be false concerns. You have to mount through the bottom baseplate… The Hayabusa Mounting Plate is wider than the JLF TP-1 but fits with a few millimeters to spare on the sides. You must flip the HRAP N3 cable harness to fit the Hayabusa prong adapter, though. The HRAP N3/NX cable harness snaps onto the Hayabusa prong like it would an LS-joystick prong adapter.

(1) I did a quick test fit of a spare JLF with the TP-1 installed… This confirms that the most practical way to install the Hayabusa (with a mounting plate) in the Agetec is to swap the Hori H-MP with the JLF TP-1. The existing Hayabusa mounting plate is just a bit too thick for the installation. The TP-1 is installationally compatible with the Hayabusa (H-stick) and can be used an anchor for the H-stick. The H-stick body is comparable in size to the LS-32-01 body/PCB so no additional plastic cutting should be necessary for installation.

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@GeorgeC - Doesn’t it fit beautifully in an N3/NX?

58

Unfortunately, I don’t think so…

You’ll have to have a friend buy it for you and ship it to you, OR wait for the first disappointed Hayabusa buyer or Fighting Edge owner parting their stick.
I wouldn’t hold my breath for the latter… the FE parts are pretty good with the Hayabusa getting high marks I think from most people who have tried it.
I have an LE edition joystick or two but have always taken out the JLF because I found it to be a disappointment. I like the Hayabusa enough now that I can’t see myself ever doing that with this control lever!
The Hayabusa should become the default control lever for ALL the Hori LE/HRAP-series joysticks!

The best that could be hoped for as far as the Hayabusa is concerned is if one of the arcade parts vendors – a big enough one – can convince Hori to mass-produce and release the joystick for general distribution. I don’t know that will happen. It’s always a possibility Hori could decide to sell to certain stick vendors if they pressed them. I could see Arcade Shock or Akihabarashop.jp getting their hands on Hayabusa’s under those circumstances.

All speculation, yes, but nobody seriously thought a year ago that Hori would finally break down and sell the Hayabusa lever and Kuro buttons separate from the Fighting Edge OR that Hori would be doing limited edition runs of the HRAP V3 with the Hayabusa and Kuro parts, either…

59

damn, I’m excited! I may go ahead and get a Hayabusa and some Kuro buttons for my dual-modded TE-S …

60

I just ordered a Hayabusa myself…