Honda Match-up Thread: After the war 2010 AE

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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9.: Honda is not a grappler, at least not a true grappler. His okizeme is bad, true, but he has mixups. cr jab xx hands/throw/buttslam/oicho gives him solid mixups. Yes, he doesn’t shine in this department, but saying he doesn’t have it at all is off

  • regarding Honda’s jumpins: actually no. This is what Hoodaman said about this match:
    “There is a point on the screen where if Honda does a far jump in, it becomes a guessing game on both ends. If Honda presses LP in the air, it will beat half of Guile’s anti air options. If he jumps in with MP it will beat some other AA’s, and if he jumps in empty it will beat Guile’s Cr fierce. It’s a guessing game that isn’t in Honda’s favor, but if he guesses right once then he is in.”

  • Yes, damage isn’t everything, but it matters. Is a factor that counts in every matchup. If Honda gets the life lead, the match turn on Honda’s favour. He can turtle Guile really well, and guile has a hard time opening up Honda. And Guile’s comeback factor is terrible.

  • What are Bison’s ways to get in against Guile ?

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It’s not that you are a bad player but Sanford is one of the best players in the world. He has played fighting games 40 hrs a week for I’m guessing in the neighbourhood of 10 years or so. You not knowing the matchup is what makes him win 5-0 against you.

He is not wrong in saying that Honda is bad when you consider the cast but that match is not unwinnable.

1384

I’ll just leave this here… go to 14:20. if that is not a good guile then I don’t know what is. i only lost because of an execution error.

you approach the game the wrong way. you think honda has no mixup. that is just wrong thinking. every character has mixup. not everything has to be safe like cammy.

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Honda is mostly a grappler character. He can only turtle a small percentage of the cast in this game and the rest he has to play aggressive. If cr. Jab/throw/buttslam/oicho were solid mixups then it would be easier to apply a vortex to your opponent, right? That’s not the case. So I stand by what I said that is okizeme is almost non-existant.

There are particular ranges for most characters in the game to properly stuff anti-airs with airborne normals. Saying that Honda can do a far jump in on a guess, hoping that the Guile player chooses to anti-air, assuming that the proper hit box vs hurt box scenario aligns itself, doesn’t just make the matchup better for Honda or Bison.

This matchup isn’t in Honda’s favor until a Guile player is KO’d. I’ve seen many Honda players try to time out a Guile. It’s extremely hard and frustrating. Also Guile’s comeback factor isn’t terrible in these matchups. It’s only terrible against other characters.

What are Bison’s ways of getting in against Guile? He has the same ways as Honda except more. He can actually play decent footsies against Guile as well as punishing bad ones with Scissor Kick. He can use EX Devil’s Reverse and Psycho Crusher to quickly close the gap. You might say that he can just be air thrown or anti-aired out of these options but the point is that he has more options to get in. He has more ways of dealing pressure and he has the ability to provide momentum after a knockdown.

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@Mike

“Its way easier for Honda to jump in on guile than bison as i said. not to mention the speed of the jump but the buttons are way better.”

Yes, Honda has a better jump and arguably better jumping normals. However that’s just one area of approach. It’s one option. One option is enough in this matchup and you can’t rely on playing random. Bison has multiple options, allowing him to at least attempt at attacking differently

“when you knockdown you get free crossup. one of the best mixups honda gets is vs guile”

When you score knockdown is the important part here. After an oicho throw, an overhead, sweep, buttslam? How many of those options are reliable and consistent enough for you to start okizeme? All Bison needs to do is land one Scissor Kick. There are no cross up setups, but pressure is what we want here. One poor cross up set up isn’t going to scare a Guile player.

“ok… same scenario as honda but with no command grab and less damage…”

Same scenario as Honda? Are you saying that Honda has a better chance because he has the option of command throwing? What’s the risk vs reward here? You try to command throw and you succeed. You have to make another hard read again. You guess wrong he gets out. Now Bison knocks down with Scissor kick and dashes up and starts pressure. Guile player blocks everything or techs a throw. Scissor kick still pushed him towards the corner and Bison is still at a range to discourage trying to do anything immediately even though a Guile player can stuff Scissor Kick. Now what if the Bison player guessed right the second time? He either gets a combo to push more into the corner or a throw setup. The risk vs reward is better for Bison after a knockdown against Guile.

“thats fine it doesnt mean hes free… if hes not throwing booms then you walk forward for free. if he is then you can jump them. if he walks behind it its a 50-50 for both players.”

It’s not a 50-50. You have to read a fireball to jump it without being punished while Guile players at certain ranges can leisurely throw booms and walk behind them. If you buttslam he can just cr. F, if you headbutt you run right into a boom and if you hold down back you eat chip which is honestly the best option.

“its not random but its free shutdown of those tools”

Same thing applies for Honda except none of Honda’s special moves are projectile invulnerable.

“this is a horrible mentality… luckily for you you can stop this. i used to think this way.”

This isn’t the way I think. It’s the reason why Honda has a such a hard time against particular characters. It’s the character’s flaws. Honda’s mixup is almost non-existent. It’s why that even though Honda can do tons of damage, he ultimately loses in certain match ups. Honda’s damage is his strength but it is overplayed too much. You can’t simply think, which I know a lot of Honda players do, “I have damage so I can come back. All I need is a jump in”

“ok/ not sure what your point is though… scissor kicks can be baited + punished like headbutts”

Scissor Kick can be punished/baited. But it is harder to do and Scissor Kick has less pushback on block for Bison. So he can still push his opponent back. Not only that multiple variations of Scissor Kicks at particular ranges can be safe. Headbutt is most of the time safe but the startup is too slow and even if you do hit them, it knocks Guile away. Woohoo.

“you can stuff a boom, fwd + hp, hp, whatever…”

Why would a Guile player through a sonic boom at neutral jump fwd+HP range? Why would he throw a boom at st. HP range which is right in his face…Not only that you have to st.HP before the boom even comes out so that it won’t trade. Also, all of this is assuming that the Guile player just doesn’t walk back out of that range after pressure to get into his optimal range for footsies, which is not Honda’s st.HP range.

“walk forward boom? wuts dat?”

Lol meant Boom then walk forward.

“i dont even think he wins it vs honda to be honest. its close to 5-5 imo simply because of sick knockdown pressure + huge damage output vs guile’s shitty damage output. guiles are not impossible to figure out you maybe just dont understand how to play against zoners. sure i suppose you could say the same about bison but he just does everything honda does shittier in this match so that is why it is worse for bison.”

wat…just…wat…

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  • Honda is a turtle character by definition, he always was. The matches where he is forced to abandon the turtling and play aggressive are usually the ones he loses. Matches where he can turtle and force the opponent to get in: Guy, Hakan, Hawk, Blanka, Dan, Adon, Makoto, Sakura, Bison, Gen, Yang, Zangief, Dudley, Viper, Abel, Cammy, Ibuki, Yun, Rufus, Balrog. This like half the cast.
    Honda has some similarities to grapplers, but his style of play is very different from Zangief.

  • You make a confusion between mixups and vortex. Mixups don’t necesarrly need to be applied on a kd. I can mix you up while standing, when I get close to you or from a jump in. If I get close to you, Honda’s mixups are actually quite potent: will I use cr jab xx Hands for pressure ? will I go for Oicho ? buttlsam ? throw ? nothing ? All these requires a different response from the opponent, and that’s why they are called a mixup.

  • Except most of the cast don’t have such strong jumpin normals like Honda’s jump mp and jump lp. Honda’s jump Mp is one of the best normal jumpin in the game. This makes a huge difference between Honda and Bison.

  • No, Guile’s comeback factor is terrible even against Honda. If Honda gets a life lead, he can turtle Guile pretty well. The chip dmg from booms is not threatening enough.

  • Except Bison doesn’t have Honda’s jump Mp, neither his jump Lp. And his jumpins are much worse than Honda’s in general. He has floaty jumpins, which are easier to antiair, while Honda has great jumpins, with a great arc

Bison can play decent footsies with Guile ? Bison is of the most charge dependent characters. He has great walkspeed, but if he walks forward, he abandons his charge, which limits his potential tremendous. Without his charge, he has st hk and st mk, both which deals 90 dmg. He can’t play “decent footsies” with Guile, because all that Guile needs to do is Sonic Boom -> react. Bison needs to walk forward, hope he doesn’t eat a SB or a spin knuckle into his face, and hope to trade a st hk with a boom - which nets him 40 dmg (pathetic).

On the other hand, Honda’s st hk can stuff a sonic boom, and because hits low is harder to block. But most important, Honda is not so reliant on charge: he can walk forward and still be dangerous. His cr jab is an awesome poke that can stuff many Guile’s normals, and more important, on hit leads to 225 dmg, unlike Bison.

Bison can punish bad what with SK ? bad SB ? he can’t.

He can close the gap with PC and Ex DR ? PCs can’t pass through a boom (not even the Ex one). And Ex DR has 47 frame start up (13+34).

How can Bison put pressure on Guile ? with Sks ? they don’t go through booms, and he needs charge for that. Honda has cr jab xx hands for good pressure. And Bison’s pressure after a kd is also weak, nothing to worry about.

So Bison actually has less options to get in against Guile, and once in, he also has worse dmg output to finnish him. Top players also think Guile vs bison is worse than Guile vs Honda, and tournament results also shows that.

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when I said "“you can stuff a boom, fwd + hp, hp, whatever…” I meant at footsie range you can stuff guile’s boom, fwd + hp (backhand) and his reg HP with HK.

I just dont see why you look at it in such a negative way. I admit there are matches I have played where I did not get in a single time (for some reason its more often vs. Dee Jay, i hate that fucker, i tend to make bad jumps against that asshole) and yeah i get it why people say its favoured guile. But the longer set I play its honestly the more i figure out the player.

You are missing options too for Oki - EX headbutt (beats flash kick), focus attack, backdash, jump back, BLOCK, - all important and they all keep you on him. buttslam is great he cant do much against it on wakeup (cant reversal fadc but i think he can backdash away).

all in all i totally get where you ar ecoming from im just saying its not as bad as people say… go play sf2 vs guile, thats truly what i call a bad matchup. fireballs do serious chip, your neutral jump is poop, although the damage is there when you get in, its more like you get 3 chances to get in instead of 8. 8 chances is plenty to figure out someone in 2 rounds.

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  • Honda is a turtle character by definition, he always was. The matches where he is forced to abandon the turtling and play aggressive are usually the ones he loses. Matches where he can turtle and force the opponent to get in: Guy, Hakan, Hawk, Blanka, Dan, Adon, Makoto, Sakura, Bison, Gen, Yang, Zangief, Dudley, Viper, Abel, Cammy, Ibuki, Yun, Rufus, Balrog. This like half the cast.
    Honda has some similarities to grapplers, but his style of play is very different from Zangief.

Half of those matches you mentioned are 5-5 but that’s an opinion of match up. Yeah Honda is turtle character but he also has a command throw. Honda can only turtle effectively with meter and there is little to nothing to deter people from just mauling Honda on defense. His primary style of play is different from Zangief but that’s why I said he was a bad grappler. Honda is jack of trades but master of none. One of those trade is grappling while another is turtling.

  • You make a confusion between mixups and vortex. Mixups don’t necesarrly need to be applied on a kd. I can mix you up while standing, when I get close to you or from a jump in. If I get close to you, Honda’s mixups are actually quite potent: will I use cr jab xx Hands for pressure ? will I go for Oicho ? buttlsam ? throw ? nothing ? All these requires a different response from the opponent, and that’s why they are called a mixup.

Sure mixups don’t need to be started after a knockdown. Also I know what the general definition of a mix up is. You made pretty large generalizations as to how Honda can start a mix up. I’m specifically talking in relation to the Honda vs Guile matchup and how he has to and can mix up Guile.

  • Except most of the cast don’t have such strong jumpin normals like Honda’s jump mp and jump lp. Honda’s jump Mp is one of the best normal jumpin in the game. This makes a huge difference between Honda and Bison.

Other characters do have strong jump-ins. You are overestimating jump medium punch. Why do you think they are buffing it in Ultra? Also that doesn’t make the giant difference that you think it does because it can still be anti-aired unless it’s used *perfectly[i/] every time. Also, once again, jumping isn’t the only aspect of the matchup.

  • No, Guile’s comeback factor is terrible even against Honda. If Honda gets a life lead, he can turtle Guile pretty well. The chip dmg from booms is not threatening enough.

Honda needs meter to turtle effectively. A Guile player can go offensively on a Honda forcing mistakes without even having to jump. It’s about forcing a circumstance and creating room for miscalculation or error. You can’t simply downback against Guile and say that the match is over.(Of course you can if there isn’t enough time left) Also it’s not about chip damage.

“Bison can play decent footsies with Guile ? Bison is of the most charge dependent characters. He has great walkspeed, but if he walks forward, he abandons his charge, which limits his potential tremendous. Without his charge, he has st hk and st mk, both which deals 90 dmg. He can’t play “decent footsies” with Guile, because all that Guile needs to do is Sonic Boom -> react. Bison needs to walk forward, hope he doesn’t eat a SB or a spin knuckle into his face, and hope to trade a st hk with a boom - which nets him 40 dmg (pathetic).”

If he walks forward and loses his charge how is that different from Honda? He can’t play decent because all Guile needs to do is Sonic Boom and react…that sounds familiar. Walking forward and hoping not to eat an SB or a spin knuckle and hoping for a trades sounds familiar too…

“On the other hand, Honda’s st hk can stuff a sonic boom, and because hits low is harder to block. But most important, Honda is not so reliant on charge: he can walk forward and still be dangerous. His cr jab is an awesome poke that can stuff many Guile’s normals, and more important, on hit leads to 225 dmg, unlike Bison.”

You know that move starts up 1f slower than Bison’s st. MK? You also know that Bison is only -3 after while Honda is -7 after st. HK? You know that st.HK can be focus crumpled? You know that st. HP has 10 frame startup and huge recovery just like st. HK? Honda is not so reliant on charge: he can walk forward and still be dangerous. If that were the case then why is the matchup so hard? What the fuck? Not only that, this is all assuming you can even get into poke range with Honda’s walkspeed. It’s easier for Bison to get into poke range and it’s easier for him to keep poking as well.

"He can close the gap with PC and Ex DR ? PCs can’t pass through a boom (not even the Ex one). And Ex DR has 47 frame start up (13+34). "

-__-

Go to 1:15

It absorbs a Boom. How much do you know about Bison?

"How can Bison put pressure on Guile ? with Sks ? they don’t go through booms, and he needs charge for that. Honda has cr jab xx hands for good pressure. And Bison’s pressure after a kd is also weak, nothing to worry about. "

Because they don’t go through booms he’s not going to use them? Doesn’t Guile need a charge to do Boom? Both characters need a charge and we’ve seen plenty of times both characters charge in front of another in footsie range. Bison can still throw out scissor kick at footsie range range or up close if he has charge…

"So Bison actually has less options to get in against Guile, and once in, he also has worse dmg output to finnish him. Top players also think Guile vs bison is worse than Guile vs Honda, and tournament results also shows that. "

Damage isn’t everything nor is it the decisive factor. Top players aren’t insusceptible to being wrong nor are they the governing parties on matchups. If you are going to talk about tournament results please list some specific results.

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OOoooOOooh I misinterpreted what you said. Yeah you can stuff it but it’s hard to do consistently and have you commit to st.HK which is ridiculous. I get your opinion and I know Guile vs Bison is awful too. But I can’t sympathize with people who say that matchup isn’t competitive when it’s just as bad or worse for Honda imo.

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Yeah i mean I don’t really understand how peopel say its 8-2 guile, i personally SUCK at that matchup! but i am also just picking up the character (guile) too.

Check out dieminion (+ knuckle du) vs happy medicine

-just saw that cr MP xx Flash kick punishes certain scissors (guile cannot punish any headbutts except with super)

-hes able to throw booms WAY easier against bison than he can vs. honda and i believe that all comes down to honda’s superior jump-ins. why is it that dieminion hardly threw booms against me but spams them all day vs happy medicine? might be because he can recover fast enough by the time bison’s lofty jump completes (he did sneak some PERFECTLY timed jumps in but most of them got beat)

some of the youtube comments say happy played it poorly

all in all i see its hard for him but again not impossible he gets in there and does some sick damage so people probably are overstating it.

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This is a stupid discussion. Guile wins both matches by zoning, but moreso the Bison match because of his floaty jump, which can be cr.hpd even if Bison jumps in on a.close boom. If Guile tries to throw a boom at that distance against honda he will eat a j.hk in the face with a combo followup.

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I didn’t know Guile could punish a headbutt with super. Are you sure? I can see why if it’s in the corner or anything or maybe with kara but not raw.
Afaik he can only punish all headbutts with Kara EX Flash Kick and fierce headbutt with Ultra 2.

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That’s right i forgot he can punish with U2 but I’m almost 100% sure he can get w/ Super I feel like i have eaten it before… its 6 fr startup at worst on HK… maybe im wrong and the pushback is too far.

There is a kara flashkick? hwo do u do dat?

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I’ve never performed the ex kara flaskick myself, but I’ve read about the punish in one’s incomplete headbutt punish list here on the forum.
But if I’m guessing, then I guess it would’ve been a flash kick kara’d into an EX Flash kick by plinking it.

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lol ill have to try that when i get home

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Oni’s been getting pretty popular in Norcal and I’d have to agree it’s a pretty hard match up. I think 6.5-3.5 best represents it. His normals are a bitch to deal with, especially s.Lk. It beats cr. Lp and doesn’t even let you press buttons. The fireball isn’t super bad, but it’s still a fireball. Jumping in on the fireballs isn’t hard, but a good oni player will keep you out with normals and DPs too. Oni still has a DP, which is always godlike against Honda. This match can be super hard, but not impossible. You understand how to fight oni once you learn oni’s tricks, what’s safe and what’s not safe.

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  • just because Honda has a cmd throw doesn’t make him a grappler. And no, he is not a jack of all trades, what the crap, man ? Ryu is a jack of all trades. A jack of all trades is a well rounded character, that has answer to almost any situation, not having big weaknesses, but not exceling at anything, either. Honda is the exact opposite: he is a polar character, that excel at some things (defense) and can maul some characters, but also has big weaknesses (fireballs) and gets mauled by some (including guile). His style of play is clear and cut: usually he can turtle characters without a fireball, but loses to those with a fireball. He has a cmd throw, but unlike Zangief, his fighting style does not rely around landing that grab.

  • If you know the definition of mixups, then why did you say Honda has no mixups ? Anyway, I’m glad you agree mixups don’t equate vortex

  • No, you are underestimating his jump Mp. Is one of the best normal jump ins in the game. It beats clean some of Guile’s antiairs. jump lp beats other AAs, and empty jump make cr hp whiff. This force Guile into a guessing game. And yes, jump in is not the only aspect of the game.

  • "If Bison walks forward he loses charge… how is that different from Honda ?"
    Well, Honda has cr jab xx Hands which does not requires a charge. And a cmd grab, that also don’t require charge. This is a huge difference.
    I told you before: if Bison walks forward, he can deal max 90 dmg with his st mk/ st hk. If Honda walks forward, he can deal 225 dmg with cr jab xx hands. And why this is still difficult for Honda ? because he still has a tough time against SB, ands getting past Guils’s spin knucle, st hp, etc.

  • Watch the video yourself: Bison got through sonic boom because he was close to Guile: this happens because Ex Pc has fireball invincibility in front (if he is close to Guile, he can hit him through a sonic boom). But he cannot pass through a sonic boom from farther away and close the gap as you said.

Anyway, I’ve explained this match in detail, after all, this is all my opinion. Other Honda players also voiced their opinion. If you don’t like, I suggest you go into Guile forums and ask there what guile players think which match is easier for them. But regarding tournament results:

Honda vs Guile:

Mike Ross beating Dieminion at Ect4

Mike also beat Nuckledu at UFGT8 (sorry, I can’t find the video)

These show that Honda can still win against Guile, also it’s really hard.

On the other hand, I’ve yet to see a Bison winning in a tournament against a good guile, and I’ve seen this match a dozen times:

[details=Spoiler] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXj1pEXBIE

dieminion vs Happy medicine at Nec 13: 3-0

Dieminion vs Shang Tsung at Evo2012: 2-0

Dieminion vs Happy Med at vxg: 2-0

Dieminion vs Tampa Bison at apex 2014: 2-0

Nuckledu vs Happy Med at youmacon [/details]

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@Emanuelb

It’s my opinion as well. I wasn’t arguing or being difficult. I just wanted to get other player’s perspective ont the matchup in comparison to the other. We can both agree that both matchups are just shitty though.

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Fair enough, mate. To be honest, my personal opinion is that Honda vs Guile is around ~ 3-7, while Bison vs Guile ~ 2.5-7.5. So, yeah, both are horrible, and the difference is small, haha.