Just wrote this to someone on reddit/r/sf4 asking for honda advice. maybe this can help someone out here, it deals in particular with zoners but maybe there is something i do in my thought process you have overlooked
[details=Spoiler]First of all I break fireball characters down into 2 groups; Guile, Chun Li, and Dee Jay (and actually akuma to some extent too), and then pretty well the rest can go into the other category. These characters have very fast startup/recovery (total frames to start and complete the fireball is what we are looking for here) on fireballs and are difficult to jump in on because they will recover in time to punish you much more easily than the rest of the cast. Really the way you approach both “groups” is the same its just you need to be a little more careful in your predictions vs the Fast Fireball group. I would say as a rule of thumb you almost need to limit your jump ins slightly more against these guys but it really comes down to play style and your reads.
So first lets talk about NJ Fierce. nj fierce is your best friend because no other character has the ability to alter thier movement in the air… balrog has it but its shit. think of it like characters with divekick have that advantage to alter their trajectory, this is our option we get so we need to use it. One thing to note the difference between using this as opposed to just a straight neutral jump is you do have recovery frames upon landing when using the punch so its slightly less safe.
If you do it too close many characters have options to punish it (i.e. ryu can FADC his fireball dash forwards and DP you but its pretty rare but can lead to free ultra so be careful. Akuma will demon you, etc.) its best to do this from as far back as possible. Many players will simply allow you to walk them into the corner this way.
This should actually be the goal of your entire match because a big problem for honda is backdash escapes. The timing for jumping fireballs is a skill but think of it like you are playing megaman or some platform game and you really dont want to get hit by even one fireball. It’s better to block if you are unsure- this is why i stay full screen (more time to react) and also why i tend to only NJ the slower ones.
You will also be surprised how many guys will walk themselves into the corner simply by you “walking and blocking”. A big problem for honda is that you have lost charge whne moving forward and obviously lp and ex headbutts are among the best anti airs in the game. I struggled with this for a very long time but using Standing Fierce is the key to overcoming this. it is also the only way to beat cross up tatsus in neutral. Another thing that works very well is Focus Backdashing the jump in if you are taken by surprise by the jump in as the fierce is soooo slow starting up. It will pretty well always get you out of trouble and now you are no longer at the mercy of their mixup.
focusing through fireballs is generally not the greatest idea but i think its something that still needs to be utilized. The reason i am bringing this up is you need to utilize all three options that i have discussed to walk them into the corner - nj fireballs, walking and blocking fireballs, and focusing through.
Once you have them in the corner you have a huge advantage. They have lost basically 2 options; walking backwards, and dashing backwards. This is so important. If they have allowed you to get close before walking them in these rules for approaching will still apply but you have to keep in mind that they can walk backwards out of range and make you whiff and also backdash. hondas moves are very slow so many good players take advantage of this.
When you are close enough, you have some options now. You need to determine which option is best based on if they are pressing a lot of buttons or turtling. Lets start with if they are pressing lots of buttons.
If this is your read on them, then you need to approach into the distance where you think they are going to do a certain attack and just camp down back. I will generally do this after I have conditioned them into thinking i am walking into a certain range and pressing a button and have been repeatedly blown up for it. Ideally you are going to try and bait them into doing something unsafe, so for example you walk into the spacing and you wait for the DP and you block it. free HHS, Headbutt, U1, whatever. Sounds easy enough. Now the tricky part. If they poke with something that IS safe, the only way to beat it is to focus through it (move specific). This can be fairly risky and is a very difficult technique to master but has huge rewards. you may need to just focus dash backwards upon reaction that you wont be able to beat it. One thing I particularly like focusing is sweeps, so I FADC forwards through it and oicho/foward throw (if they are in corner) them. You can do this into u2 but id stick to u1 vs zoners.
alright so now we’ve got baits down, lets talk about pokes. you’ve got cr lp, cr mp, even cr hp sometimes (pretty bad though), st fierce, st hk, and even cr lk if you get close enough. cr lk is more or less once you get in, i go cr lk , cr lp, HHS (frame trap) mix it up with oichos and regular throws and different amount of ticks. we’ll talk about this more when i talk about pressure. but anyway lets talk about far range - you can also use your headbutts and buttslams but they are higher risk and about the same reward as the normals.
the idea is to be attacking from all the different ranges. mixing up your pokes is huge because you can condition them into always thinking you will attack from cr LP range then suddenly you stuff them from far range with st HK or st Fierce. i personally love chipping with hands so its easy to condition them into thinking i will always come up close and then st HK their startup of their fireball animation. you can also pressure with the focus, let it rip level 2 and dash foward… but it becomes a 5050 at that point so i tend use it only when behind or if i have a solid read on their reactions.
now you cant always approach from the ground. you have to mix type of attack as well. you can nj and fake him out (you can actually beat DPs if you float it backwards) or you can go in. now you have a good mixup if you tick him with that cause you have frame advantage unlike with the focus level 2 on block.
now onto the jump ins. jumping in vs fireballs is hard hard hard. use it seldomly. You need to gather data first by walking forwards. so many players have tendencies to throw fireballs upon certain triggers. actually i would go as far as saying 99%. most will wait until they see you crouch. so what do i do? I walk forward and crouch and see if they throw one and how long does it take them to throw one. ill even do it a second and third time. well now I know exactly when you will throw a fireball. for some people its just after a certain amount of time walking forward. for some its the instant you walk forward. for others its just when you get to a certain spacing. these are things you need to look for and note their adjustments as well. they will liekly stop throwing them all together. Some will throw 2 back to back.
2 things to keep in mind whne jumping in - dont always intend to hit. walk forward + backward - Dance - and keep them guessing which spacing you are jumping from. like i said before you have less recovery when you do not use an attack. jumping from full range is the best mixup because you can trick them into thinking you wont even attack… or you do something like empty jumps hands. utilize your other buttons, RH, MK, and MP. MP is really hard to beat. mk is your crosssup but also use it in front. RH is your max damage button. when you mix up these buttons people press their AA buttons at the wrong timings and get hit.
using u1 is HUGE for beating fireballs. the best thing to do is look for people who throw fireballs back to back. it really just comes down to mentally noting their fireball timings. As I said before many players will only wait until they see you walk forward to throw one so you cant use it against these guys to beat fireballs. you can actually trick them with a kind of advnaced technique - dash forward u1. hard to use though. charge db, tap fwd fwd back fwd 3P and it will happen. interrupt during the buffer if they arent taking the bait.
i want to touch on guile, chun li, akuma, and dee jay. these guys can actually pressure you and chase a fireball upon launch. what you may not realize is they have in a way put themselves in a bit of a 50-50 by doing this.
So you sit there and they walk up and push their overhead buttons and you get hit holding down back. they walk up and try and hit you with a far low. they walk up and jump to try and air throw your jump. these can all be beaten.
if you predict a grounded normal you gotta bait them into thinking this is safe. there is a certain spacing where the fireball will be a safe blockstring from whatever they are poking with. dont sit in these ranges. trick them into thinking that you will by staying planted, then move back and EX headbutt in the middle of the block string. another trick - MK/EX Buttslam through the fireball and into thier startup. FADC backwards and make them whiff their overhead + punish. neutral jump or jump in - CROSS THEM UP! do notihng. do all of these things and get reads on what they like to do. they will stop that shit real quick and get scared. changing your timings when you decide to move. move right off the hop of the fireball or wait til they are right up, or somewhere i nthe middle. you have a lot of freedom. watch my matches vs. brolly legs and CCG Air to get an idea of how i play it vs chun. watch my match vs dieminion even, i didnt win due to an execution error, but the strategy was sound. changing your jump in normals is huge here too because they need to use specific normals to beat different air attacks.
Pressure: This is not something I excel at by any means. I play a strong neutral game, I am not a setup king. goto shoryuken.com forums and check out the honda section - theres a thread on safe jumps, unblockables, fake crossups, and OS’s. Keep in mind there are many characters are completely free to meaty jabs on wakeup - namely sakura and dee jay.
Here’s my take on it - if you have a safe jump, use it. let them use their escapes. use it use it use it, condition their escapes and then dont use it and punish their escape. Guile can be crossed up free. same with rog. Chun can be buttslammed free (lk up close) it will beat ex sbk.
when you are down in health you must pressure. my favorite setup is lp/lk tick oicho. i will use lk lk oicho, lk lk lp hands, lk neutral jump fierce float back (beat DP mashers), raw oicho, if I have a strong suspicion they will DP on wakeup you can beat it with ex headbutt if timed right. mix up your jump timings if no safe jump is available. after HHS xx Super, (not in corner) jump foward, walk back 7fr (should say wiggle back 7fr is like nothing like the slightest tap on the stick), jump forward fierce is a safe jump. there is an OS HHS-Headbutt that works insanely vs bison.
my mentality is if i have a huge life lead and no safe jump, play neutral where honda excels. i prefer to gain ground as opposed to whiffing oicho for meter in some cases. i will do things like stick out st HK to shake them up every now and then - all the things we talked about during approach if you think they will just turtle. sorry im not the best here but hope this helps somewhat.
Ultra changes: To be honest i dont think it will change the way I play at all other than the fear of red focus against HHS. EX headbutt nerf sucks but hopefully they revert it. I try to avoid pressuring with it as is because good players know to jump back to bait it. I am liking how ex red focus will give us opportunity to use 3 meters to combo from HHS to u1 for ~450 damage and corner carry. other than that i am remaining open minded til the game drops.
one last thing i forgot to say dont chase down people with headbutts and buttslams. i still have a problem with it. you can use HK buttslam to get people jumping back.[/details]
- IIRC they don’t do as much damage ON HIT as a regular fireball but still do the standard 15 chip damage