Does anyone have tips on fighting Goukens who actually know what they are doing. I find that it’s hard to get in on him when his fireball have so low recovery, and when i finally do get close, he can demon flip in and start his mix-up game. And if i make one offensive mistake, he can backthrow me into ultra. His high command-FA also hits cr. jab so it’s a bigger risk to do a walk up HHS
If he is anticipating a jab into hands, mix it up once in a while with oicho. Also, if you can cr.mk into hands instead that will also cause him to have to choose between his high and low reversal making it more of a guessing game for him. The regular dash into oicho though is what should stop him from just throwing out those reversals making jab into hands a possibility again.
I generally get close by just bulldogging. Unless he is really predictable with his high fireballs, its better to just eat the chip and get in close cause Gouken isn’t good at close range.
Who wants a top tier Honda anyway? Suck it up guys. We all stuck with him when we had to fight a hundred Sagat’s every day. These changes can’t be that bad.
Getting wins with Honda when ppl thought he sucked was much more fun than when everyone just shouts OP and top tier blah blah (this top tier nonsense is stupid anyway).
As long as the Guile and Sim matchups are a little more fair I don’t care if he drops down to middle tier again. In fact I hope for it.
Are the sim and guile matchups better? Seems like it’ll be harder to get in now and since the damage has been toned down they will be harder to kill.
Well the changes to Honda don’t make the matches easier, but the changes to those guys hopefully should. Both have damage nerfs I believe as well and Guile air throw can be beaten in the air now meaning Honda is safer to jump.
Fingers crossed the HB will still bug out on yoga fire, but I imagine they might fix that… 
If Honda can’t full screen EX Headbutt anymore, does that make the “going through Sim Fireball glitch?” useless?
First post updated.
Now that lp HB don’t works as AA, Ex HB is the default AA, I also use it most time at point blank range for punishing stuff anyway.
The news are still green, this looks more like rumours that actual facts.
I’ve been fighting a high level Gouken too (ViperGoomba) and that match-up has eeeeeeeaaasily become my most hated.
The key ( i think) to this fight is to remain calm (because gettin around Goukens MANY fireballs and defenses is a f***ing chore) and to be random once you get in (kinda like the Sagat match-up).
Also NO jumping. Even if you think you can predict when he’s going to throw a fireball, Gouken can cancel the motion into his FA command and its aaaaaaall the way back to the screen. Or he’ll predict you’ll jump and hit you with a Fierce P Fireball + Palm combo and its back to the other side of the screen again. Or he’ll hit you with EX Vertical HUrricane or crouching fierce (i think) or any one of his other anti-airs.
Get used to focusing and NJ through those fireballs (blocking just pushes you to the back of the screen since they come out so F***ING fast) but dont get to predictable with your approach. FP fireball knocks you out of a NJ. Get too close and he’ll use running palm. And for God’s sake don’t get antsy and try to cover ground by Headbutting your way in (unless you feel safe enough to do lp Headbutt. Goukens jump back fierce is godlike. Balrog godlike. Hell, his NJ fierce is godlike too. It acts like Hondas NJ jab… except fierce. Plus theres a good chance he’ll grab you and then its Ultra time.
The GOOD part about that is I have been able to buffer cr. lp to hands on block against palm so any bit of damage is good vs. Gouken.
Another good thing is once you DO get in, cr. lp COMPLETELY stuffs a lot of Goukens normals so if you do have good hands you should use them. And be random as hell which should also include ochio and doing nothing because his EX FA command kills everything (except headbutt).
And from here it just turns into “what the hell will he do next”. I don’t think he has a very good back dash so he’ll try jumping out and doing his demon BS. Once I have that nailed down I’ll let you know.
Sorry to be running off at the mouth but this is one of those match-ups (when played by someone who knows what the hell they are doing) that makes you wanna drop Honda altogether. But you can’t cuase he’s the Big Guy and ya love him. Good luck bro. I might try to upload video to help later on.
Re-Wrote the first page a bit. Stay tuned! Mwahahahaha! /Eye patch!
awaiting casualty reports.
? After someone reported that E. Honda’s EX Headbutt traveled less distance, lots of other players said that person was full of crap. Such is the nature of these reports, right now.
thats from eventhubs(not a fan of that site btw)
So like i said before we are just gonna have to wait til a honda player (snk…) gets their hands on the game. Austin is getting the game in a week or so hopefully some texas hondas go mash for us.
I played a bunch of games last night, here are my notes:
EX Headbutt seems to me to be the same, don’t worry. They probably got messed up because it’s supposed to track the opponent’s position instead of traveling a certain distance
All headbutts do SSF4 level damage point blank, however if there is even a little bit of travel time the damage is reduced by a little. Just eagle-eying the lifebar it seems to decrease by about 15 - 20 points of damage
EX Headbutt can be countered with Yun’s Ultra 1 AND Yang’s EX mantis slash. All other headbutts can be countered by Yang’s HP Mantis Slash. Do not do random headbutts against Yang. 
I was fighting Umezono (top level 3s/SF4 player) last night, and he hit me with HP Mantis Slash x 2, FADC into Ultra 1 off a blocked headbutt
that’s good shit, keep it coming!
Thanks for the write up! Just wondering, where did you get these two pieces of information from? Neither of them were mentioned in any developer blogs or Famitsu scans.
I won’t believe the last nerf on the list is real until I see some frame data, or until I play the game for myself. This would be the only nerf I care about; cr. jab xx HP Hands is already an untrue block string, and if the gap got even bigger, this would kill Honda. Hands pressure is easily the most fun I’ve ever had in this game, and if it’s gone…just please don’t let this be true.
Also I’m pretty sure Reno confirmed that Hands looks and feels exactly the same, and he has first hand experience with the game at loke tests.
I managed to play for a few hours yesterday too and got caught by Yun off an EX Headbutt. Beware of decent Yun players as well. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to play a decent Yang, but I look forward to finding one tomorrow.
I got the impression that:
Hands did not feel any different from playing on a console. I used the same timing as I always do for buffering hands and it worked fine. However, it did feel like cr.LP -> HHS has become slightly more prone to mash reversals if the HHS isn’t inputted smoothly and promptly after the LP.
U2 is still pretty ‘situational’ (read: useless) - it’s now easy to input but doesn’t have great reach considering it’s a command throw and doesn’t really compare with U1. Still only useful for catching people off guard with HHS -> FADC -> U2 or for veeeeeery well-timed ticks, I feel. I tried a dash U2 a few times, but all but one person just neutral jumped it.
U1 is now godlike when you have a shoto (especially Ryu and Sagat) near the corner. If you’re patient and time it right you can catch a panicking shoto from quite a bit further out and slightly earlier than in console SSF4.
Cancelling cr.MK feels funny, but then my timing is bad anyway.
Gief felt like a bad match-up overall, and Sagat was still difficult. On the plus side, the Fei match-up wasn’t as bad I thought it would be, and Yun’s dive kicks were not as infuriating as Rufus’.
Oh, and as for the damage nerf, it’s noticeable but not terrible like I assumed it would be. I got the feeling that it’ll suit Honda players who react rather than pressure, but that’s just my opinion.
This post makes me feel good. How fast is Yun’s ultra? Is it fucked up and only like Fuerte’s console U2 could match it, or are a lot of other characters able to punish ex headbutt as well?
Also, why do you think gief beats Honda now? I can’t really see how that matchup would have changed to put it in giefs favor. I feel like Honda can just keep gief out rather easily in SSF4 and I don’t see how that has been effected.
Yun’s U1 is pretty fast but not as fast as Fuerte’s ridiculous effort in SSF4. I think the characters who could punish it in SSF4 can still do so, as far as I know, but I didn’t get punished by anything new for a blocked EX butt. Yun can hurt you if he blocks a normal butt, however.
As for Gief, the one I played just kept coming at me like a zombie regardless of bj.MP and nj.HP antics. As long as I didn’t get knocked down it was alright, but you can see the damage nerf a bit. However once I got knocked down, he did to me what Honda does to other characters - left a slight gap and reacted to whatever came out. If I stood and blocked high, he jabbed low. If I threw a normal out, I got an LP -> LP SPD tick. If I blocked low, he took to the air. Once he had me blocking, he started safe jumping and following up with cr.LP . If I dashed back, he got back in my face. Also, the EX Burning Hand nerf may not be a nerf at all seeing as it covers space well and can be used in a tick, while LP SPD ticks appear to be a factor in footsies now. I didn’t see much of
It may just be that I fought a good Zangief, but after the first round, the match felt rather ominous. I’d say that this was the only match I fought where the damage nerf bothered me, while it felt like Gief was able to close the gap more quickly.
Damage nerfs to dhalsim, guile, and the removal of seth’s J.HP means we’re probably better off or around the same as in super vs. our worst matchups - Seth will probably still be annoying but in a different way.
Damage nerfs will probably even out slight advantage matchups like Gief, Vega, Balrog, Cammy - I’d imagine Yun/Yang won’t really be that difficult to deal with unless someone discovers something extremely broken about them.
I’d bet we should still be in good shape, I’ll try to make it to arcade UFO one of these weeks and test some stuff.
I agree, I think Honda will still be very strong. I think the supposed HP Hands nerf is just people looking for things that aren’t there.
The arcade near me is getting SSF4:AE as well, so I can post my findings.
Why are we all of a sudden trippin that certain characters can ultra out headbutts? There are always certain matchups where it wont be needed. Just by the looks of it yun is gonna have a horrible time getting in on honda anyway. What I’m worried about is another few fireball characters getting buffs. Juri an deejay both look like serious zoning characters that will make life hell for Honda much like guile and dhalsim. Imagine how hard deejay was in super if you couldn’t jump in with mp and he has a faster charge time.
On another note, if someone gets their hands on AE could you please check how low the arc is on jump in mp? This is seriously the only change that will make or break this charcter. If it got nerfed, Honda could be EASILY counterpicked all day which would make him worthless.