I felt that jumping MP isn’t as all-purpose as it was in Super and it does get stuffed by or trades with more moves than it used to, but if you space your jump-ins correctly it is still a big tool in Honda’s arsenal. None of the characters I faced (Yun, Cody, Sagat, Ryu, Fei, Gouki, Gief and Mak) were able to stuff it every time, but Cody and Fei have a pretty useful normal for stuffing it. Couldn’t tell you what buttons they were, though - I’m turd with both of those characters.
s.hk, hk ruffian kick, b+mp and cl.hk for cody. I bet they added around 2 frames of startup to HHS so that at max range, jab might not be enough hit stun to combo. I bet honda’s going to sink without a meterless AA now.
Yo Fuck Capcom
Did any of you AE players try AA lp headbutt? Is it flat out useless for AA now, or it situational? I’ve such a habit for this tool, I feel like this will be the biggest adjustment for me.
also try lp hb on wakeup lol maybe it can escape grabs lmao i doubt it but ya this whole jump in mp debacle is silly…it SOMETIMES beat or traded with things that had huge priority such as sim’s back knee AA and guiles cr fp. if timed correctly…it was because of the hit box and it hitting high and very very low towards the end of it… the most use i had for it was beating dj’s slide if done late and crossing people up midscreen with it. If it still trades with high priority moves and its Air to Air priority is still godlike…i dont see the big deal but again i have 0 AE exp
I tried it three or four times out of habit, but none of them were successful using the old timing. For me, it feels more like a tool for closing in a la Blanka LP roll rather than an AA go-to move now.
Trading with moves with a large hitbox isn’t the issue here (it’s become a little more difficult to hit against Dhalsim, I found); being stuffed by moves which don’t have high priority is. Air to air still seems heavily in Honda’s favour, but jump-in MP and cross-up MP are no longer safe bets unless you space it perfectly.
understood, it really is a great air to air move and i love using it as a jump back move as well as a combo starter where i feel fierce punch and RH arent guaranteed…also to beat blanka and dee jay’s slide moves…now as far as a jump in or even neutral jump…what is the more damaging move now? is it still jump in fp and neutral jump rh? or has any change been made to make jump in rh stronger?
And im assuming since noone has spoken of neutral jump FP that means it was untouched?..what a great move…lol
Sorry for the belated reply - I’ve been roped into looking after my baby by myself today.
I personally didn’t do that many jump-ins outside of MP, but I didn’t see any major difference in the damage output for jump-in FP, so I’d imagine it’ll be that. Also, nj.FP is still godlike and nj.RH still deals a decent chunk of damage close in. I’m off to play some more tonight, so I’ll check those two out for you and report back in the wee hours of the morning.
UltraDavid posted a few Honda changes on his twitter:
-
“honda def does less damage.” Most hands combos still work. LP Headbutt lost to Rog’s dash punch, has way less invincibility"
-
Mike Ross is here. Cr. LP xx HP Hands didn’t combo on Abel. Super is FB invincible the whole way but it still won’t hit full screen heh
-
Honda: Dude focused cr. LP, let go BEFORE HP Hands, crumpled Honda. EX HB goes 1 screen still (I guess he means full screen?) Anti air LP Headbutt lost to Claw’s j. HP
The HP Hands nerfs are really worrying. I would be fine with literally any other nerf; they could straight up remove st. roundhouse and I wouldn’t care as much as this. Fuck. Maybe I’m just salty because I worked so hard to get them perfect. Reno and LostOnPenalties, would you guys mind expanding a little bit more on how Hands have been changed?
lol.
No problem, matey. I’ve just come back from a short session to get changed and pick the wife up, so I have a couple of things fresh in my memory. I’ll also add a couple of personal opinions to the points you posted.
I got wound up by the drop in damage only when mixing things up on wake up (body splash cross-up, cr.LP -> HHS has dropped a bit in damage) and fighting the aforementioned Gief zombie, but for me it is merely noticeable, not fatal. In total, you need roughly another chop HP or crouching jab -> HB to finish the job against shotos and Mak, but the total loss of damage against Gief is obviously more. Also, the more I play, the more I notice that?LP HB is horrible. It really is just something used to get closer to a downed opponent or to get a surprise hit in with.
I haven’t played an Abel yet so I can’t comment on that, but cr.LP -> HHS does seem to eat reversals, especially ones with invincibility frames, more than before. The HP HHS has to be inputted immediately after the cr.LP to avoid succumbing to mash reversal SRKs of doom. You know how you can buffer hands so that they don’t come out if the cr.LP whiffs? That’s the timing you need to be 100% safe. New: After playing a Blanka, a Cammy and a Gouki, I reckon that HHS is pretty much the same as before against characters without a DP/invincible reversal move.
I haven’t found any problem with HHS, FADC -> Ochio, and FADC -> delayed cr.LP -> HP HHS worked a couple of times on the less alert players. cr.lp -> HHS, cr.LP -> HHS didn’t work for me, but that is because the arcade has neglected to buy new buttons for the machine and so the MP button needs a good hammering before it comes out. *New: I heard from a friend of mine that it works on many of the shotos but whiffs against Guile, but I can’t confirm that. *
I haven’t used the Super yet, what with burning so much meter on EX HB just to get people off me, but U1 also has extra frames of FB invincibility and is my new favourite move when I have a shoto in the corner - it appears that they never learn. If you can U1 on reaction to a decent level in SSF4, then you’ll love the U1 in AE.
All I can say to that is well done to him, but I don’t think there’ll be too many people trying that. It’s prone to reversals but it’s not slow like a Guile sweep; focussing it will require good reading and bravery. EX HB does indeed go nigh-on full screen or until it hits something (normally a fireball in my case), but why would anyone risk a full screen HB? Also, as Reno pointed out, the damage drops when a HB is used from distance. As for LP HB, it is now superfluous as an AA weapon. I lost out to Adon’s j.HK with it, which left me saltier than the Pacific.
I know what you mean about the Hands practice - it took me forever to get the timing down. It just needs even better timing than before. Lord knows why they did that, but what’s done is done, I suppose. Interestingly, I’ve yet to lose out to anything when I’ve put in cr.LP -> EX HHS, while cl.MP -> HHS, st.HK still deals a fair whack of damage considering how easy it is to do.
I noticed today that Honda still builds meter at a decent rate, which is good because he needs it more than ever. His nj.RH belly jump has definitely had a damage reduction but may have had its hitbox enlarged/altered, because it was surprisingly easy to knock people out of the air from close in. nj.FP is still brilliant, too. Finally, I’d like to state that Gen’ei Jin is the bane of the earth.
*New: The Cammy match-up feels very one-sided in favour of Honda. It was almost like playing SSF2T. Blanka is pure muck, but then most people expected him to be. His Blanka Balls are incredibly punishable on block by pretty much anything. I wish I had an ultra available, because it looks as though U1 will be able to punish any Blanka Ball on block. Gouki was … well, Gouki was Gouki. Losing his runaway air HK Tatsu just means that he pokes and teleports more. I watched a young bloke try a runaway jump HK Tatsu - he floundered right onto a Shinkuu Hadoken. It looked hilarious.
so in regards to jab hhs… we need to speed up our piano? Thats great… the abel thing bothers me because he was a character you could cr jab hhs > ex hhs
U1 does sound like its a great/better ultra… same AA use? super early?
lp. hb is no longer an AA… hmmm st fp or even butt slam with mk if you want to save meter i guess?
sucks i liked using it against rog and fei…
can lp hb be used on wake up? and is hhs>hhs still good? as well as cr mk hhs and ex hhs loop?
The deja vu.I was maining Gief in vanilla you know.
Same shit happens now to Honda (my current main).From the AE feedback I’m reading I think hes mid tier at most and gets owned by half the cast now.
Oh well, used to it by now I guess.
Oh and btw my middle finger was fucked up for weeks wen I was learning (slide method) jab>HSS but whatever Capcom.
Unfortunately, it seems that speeding up HHS is the safest way to protect yourself from mashers. Shocking, I know. I’d like to find an Abel to test out hands, but I can’t seem to find one anywhere.
It’s amazing what a little more protection does for an ultra. I love it. I didn’t find any difference in its AA use, so you still need to throw it out early, but you can panic a lot of shotos now just by pushing them near the corner and waiting for them to make a mistake.
Against Cammy, I tried to AA without using EX at all, and relied on st.FP and nj.FP a lot. I’m not sure I’d personally throw out an MK butt slam knowing what will happen if I overshoot it, but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work against some people.
I plan on trying LP HB with different timing to see if it can be used effectively as AA, but I’m not getting my hopes up.
I can see LP HB being useful on wake up, but I didn’t try it out because of my previous failings at AAing with it. HHS -> HHS worked whenever I tried it and it built up meter nicely. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to try cr.MK -> HHS or the EX HHS loop because of said trouble with the MP button on the machine at the arcade - I piano LP, MP, HP, LP, HP and can get away with one heavy button press per piano, but I couldn’t manage two clunky presses without hurting myself. It appears that most people have realised that MP is non-responsive and so are avoiding it, which means I get to play quickly but am hindered. I’ll give it a try when one of the other cabinets becomes available for playing on.
To be honest, I am slightly concerned that HHS -> HHS and the EX HHS loop will not work against Abel and a couple of others. Judging from cr.MK pushback, I’m confident that cr.MK -> HHS will hit, though.
Hrm… Since it seems most people are caring about the odd stuff I’ll ask a few questions of my own. (Bloody Arcade won’t have it til next Saturday)
Is his Standing HP (Jesus Chop) Faster?
Does EX-HHS give you more play at the end of it to link something? I have a feeling since we’ve never seen it that Japan might have missed it and we’ll be forced to learn Ex-HHS into HHS link.
Since I’d rather trade or use my normals to keep people out rather than using HB, if you play a standard match I.E. (Slow paced with proper Zoning and Spacing) will you notice much of a difference? (Jump Back AA’s, Poking with Cr. Jab etc. etc…)
Does Cr. :lp: Come out faster and does it have the same range?
Can we beat Rufus yet?
And my last question I guess would have to be answered by anyone with Arcade xp. Does Yun’s Dive kick give us a really hard time?
(In ST, it was really freaking hard to link HHS. You ended up just doing it raw for chip most of the time)
WTF were they thinking
also, somebody needs to see if HHS > cMK links like it used to
Spending Christmas Day in the arcade is the stuff of legend. Seeing as you’re a much, much better Honda than I am, you’ll no doubt prove all of the following to be wrong, but my early impressions are as follows.
I can’t say I noticed a visual speed difference, but I was hitting more counter hits with it than I would normally, so it may have been sped up slightly. It felt like the same old chop as in SSF4.
A broken MP button meant that I couldn’t use many EX HHS, but EX HHS, Ochio felt smooth and EX HHS, cr. LP, EX butt splash worked smoothly on both occasions. I’ll try a few different links out tomorrow evening. I’m especially interested in whether cl.MP will link.
Jump back MP and LP still win against most things in the air, cr.LP jab is unchanged as far as I can tell (but subsequent HHS inputs need to be quick to avoid mashed reversals), nj.HP is still brilliant, and st.HK has had a damage decrease but doesn’t feel any different in terms of use. All in all, Hondas who can space and/or react will not have many problems, I feel.
It wasn’t visibly quicker, but thinking about it, the gap for reversals between cr.LP and HP HHS may be due to cr.LP coming out a frame faster.
I haven’t faced a Rufus, but having seen one, probably not.
Not as much as Rufus’ do. When used Deep or on wake up, they can be a real pain and the LP (I think) version comes in at a weird angle. However, you can usually tell when one is coming because they have to get a fair way into the air before the dive kick comes out. If you throw out a chop on reaction to a close jump, you can hit Yun out of the HK (I think) version with the tip of your fingers. Unfortunately, from what I experienced, Yun is even stronger on the ground than in the air.
Thanks for the response LostOnPenalties, I really appreciate the work you put in to answer our questions.
A video interview with [media=youtube]NJVldvmIh5E[/media] His verdict? Honda is the worst character in the game. When listing off everything that was changed/nerfed, he didn’t mention hands, so that’s a relief to me.
Concerning the gap between cr. jab xx HP Hands, I should have realized sooner that it’s been there since vanilla; mashing out reversals has always worked, and I’ve eaten my fair share of DPs and Ultras in SSF4 trying to do it. If the gap is enormous, and I really can’t mount any kind of meaningful offense, then I don’t know what I’m going to do. Hands pressure is my favourite aspect of this character.
Worst character in the game?
Hah.