Euhhh, this is sort of off-topic for the thread but I’m going to roll with it anyway. Hope nobody minds!
I think every normal and command normal in the book only has one picture for it, even if it produces two (or more) different shapes and configurations of boxes throughout its duration; the first examples that comes to my mind are Blanka’s st.hp (two red box positions, hits once) and his f+mp/b+mp (two red box positions, hits twice). I just figured that this was a reflection of the limitations of their chosen format more than anything else.
Something related that’s neat to note: even though Blanka’s st.hk and cl.hk are the exact same move, they are still each listed separately (as per the book’s normal format). What’s really interesting, though, is that the two pictures show two different stages in the red and blue boxes’ positioning. I guess that the creators were still trying to squeeze in as much info into the book as they could despite the limited format.
I think every normal and command normal in the book only has one picture for it, even if it produces two (or more) different shapes and configurations of boxes throughout its duration; the first examples that comes to my mind are Blanka’s st.hp (two red box positions, hits once) and his f+mp/b+mp (two red box positions, hits twice). I just figured that this was a reflection of the limitations of their chosen format more than anything else.
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The frame count (under the image) lists a single block of hitting frames - when there should be two.
Regarding testing - the training mode dummy continues to block through the entire moves when set to block, so getting hitstun numbers for moves that knock down requires multiple players.
It only lists two separate frame boxes when it’s a 2 hitting attack, such as Dhalsim’s b Fierce. The b Strong only hits once, that’s why they have it setup that way. Blockstun for attacks that knockdown is more important than hitstun, I would think.
Looks like that answers oldschool_BR’s question, as well as the problem with cr Short x 2, cr RH. Cr Short, cr RH is probably also a 1 frame combo. Tho this still doesn’t have anything to do with hitstun/blockstun being shorter, but that the recovery of the attack (cr Short) is lengthened after the 1st hit (or conversely, the 1st cr Short’s recovery is shortened).
Except that if you are canceling the cr.short, it will have no recovery. If hitstun and blockstun are constant, then one and only one of the following statements are true[list]
[]hitstop for the attacker and the defender is different only for the initial attack of a combo;
[]one active frame is removed from the attack move;*
[*]one recovery frame is removed from the attack move.[/list]I emphasize that the total recovery is not just the number of recovery frames, but those added to the number of remaining attack frames, i.e., after the move connects. If the first one is true, then, indeed, all initial attacks give the player +1 frame advantage. If the second one is true, perfectly timed meaty attacks would not have such advantage, which would need to be comfirmed. Say, a 2nd or 3rd rekka punch that hits as late as possible. Finally, if a recovery frame is removed, that would not explain why cr.short into hadouken only combos if the cr.short is the starting attack of the combination.
Those will be even worse. The only way to combo a hadouken after a cr.short is special canceling the cr.short into it, with the cr.short being the first attack of the combo.
If you’re doing cr Short, Hadoken, you don’t have to kara cancel the Short. It combos just fine without any special cancelling. But cr Short x 2 HAS to be kara cancelled or else it won’t combo.
Yup! But it will work with 50% efficiency if you use super instead of hadouken with absolutely perfect timing. Ken’s super has no startup, while Ryu’s has 10 frames*, that is why it hits.
It needs the special cancel, it is not a link and the timing is such that trying to combo with renda cancel will fail even with cr.short as the first attack. Renda Canceling is strictly slower than ordinary special canceling, as it cancels the recovery frames, while special canceling will activate on hit, already.
*Apart from 1 frame freeze before super flash, the flash itself and an extra frozen frame after that, according to NKI’s translation of T.Akiba’s SF2 frame data.
Here’s what we know. In the SF2 series, you can do links off an initial attack that you couldn’t do in the middle of a combo. You can also do cancel combos that only work as combo starters, like Ryu’s c.LK xx Hadoken. So neither the active frames nor the recovery frames matter, because canceling into a special move gets rid of all that.
In fact if you look at Guile, he can only do c.LK -> whiff s.LK xx Sonic Boom if the c.LK is the first hit in a combo. So even renda kara cancels are subject to this rule.
The only two remaining possibilities are:
the initial attack causes more hit stun
the initial attack causes less hitstop for the attacker than the opponent
You’d have to try pretty hard to come up with a scenario where it makes a difference which of these is the truth. The distinction definitely isn’t coming up in a real match, that’s for sure.
Maybe someone should test it in an emulator by going frame by frame. Maybe you can tell when hitstop ends based on the first frame that you’re allowed to chain light attacks. But you have to use visual cues to judge when hitstop begins, which can be deceiving.
I definitely agree that certain combos in the game need to be looked at frame by frame to figure out why they work or don’t work. It would be interesting to find out whether it’s hitstun/blockstun being lengthened or hitting frames being shortened/lengthened/whatever.
“So neither the active frames nor the recovery frames matter, because canceling into a special move gets rid of all that.”
But what about Ryu’s cr Short, cr Roundhouse linking as a combo, but cr Short x 2, cr Roundhouse not comboing? This combo has nothing to do with kara cancelling or Special Attacks. Yet if you add a second cr Short, it will never combo.
Edit: The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to believe that Ryu, Ken and Akuma’s cr Short, cr Roundhouse combo is a glitch. I say that because cr Short, cr Forward doesn’t combo, even though cr Forward has the same startup time as cr Roundhouse (4 frames according to YBH). Even cr Strong has 4 startup frames yet you can’t combo cr Short, cr Strong. Only cr Roundhouse.
Plus, the 2 hit combo message doesn’t pop up when you do the cr Short, cr Roundhouse combo. Even when you compare other light normal into heavy normal combos, this discrepancy of medium normal not being able to combo doesn’t exist. Example: Dictator’s st Short, st Roundhouse. Dictator can combo his cr Forward after st Short, so it doesn’t make sense that Ryu can’t combo cr Forward or cr Strong after cr Short, especially since they have the same startup as cr Roundhouse IMO.
That’s because jchensor was talking about doing c.LK, c.HK in World Warrior. If you check out the frame data you’ll notice that c.LK was given an extra recovery frame from SSF2 onwards. That’s why it doesn’t work in ST.
If you want examples of one-frame initial-hit-only links in ST, try Ryu’s c.LK, c.LP or c.LK, s.LP or c.MP, far s.HP.
It works. Cr Short, cr Roundhouse is an unblockable combo in Classic mode of HDR as well as Remix mode with Ryu, Ken and Akuma. I can’t remember for sure if it combos in AE ST or the arcade version, but I think it does. Fire up the old console, and try it out for yourself. It’s cr Short x 2, cr Roundhouse that doesn’t combo.
James must have accomplished it in ST by having the cr.short hit meaty, that is, on wake up, on landing or after some invulnerability period (Sim’s teleport, what else?). That was the only way I could get it to combo in VST, which is what I have access to. OK, there might be a small difference from VST to the DC version (used in HDR, IIRC), but I doubt that the recovery of cr.short would be one of them. I also do not have a way of adding turbo functionality to my buttons and I suck at timing, but I do believe I have tried enough to be sure it does not work if cr.short hits on its first active frame. This is in according to what Maj has said and the frame data.
I have just remembered something: it was either hard or impossible to combo close standing roundhouse into crouching roundhouse with Ken or Ryu, but if it hit meaty, then it was. Having hitstop be shorter for the attacker for the first attack (or longer for the enemy first hit) and it hitting on the last active frame of the move’s first hit (leg upwards) would allow the first active frame of the second part of the move not to hit, because the enemy is locked into hitstop, and give an extra frame of advantage, which would allow cr.rh to combo.
Edit: Alright, I have just used the Kawaks emulator to test it.* I used Ryu’s rush punch to check it. First, I noticed that the attack spark appears on the screen at the second frame of hitstop. The first frame the attack becomes active, nothing happens. The second one, the enemy gets locked into a on-hit frozen animation. The next frame a spark appears and the enemy starts shaking. So, here is what I have done:[list][]Picked Ken as first player;[]picked Ryu as second player;[]moved Ryu as close as possible to Ken;[]Had Ken jump upwards;[*]before Ken touched the ground, had Ryu move forward and use his fierce punch (i.e., rush punch).[/list]This was so as to have Ryu hit Ken with it on the ground up close instead of having Ken get thrown. After the first 12 frames, Ryu Can already move. This is noticeable because his rush punch only has one active frame for the first attack. For the second attack, Ryu can only move (slide) one frame after. Looks like hit stop is shorter for the attacker.
I gotta go work now, so I can not double check it. I ask that someone else do this test, and maybe others, so we can see if everyone has the same results.
If you have HDR on PS3 or 360, go into training mode, set the dummy to “autoblock”. This is the best, foolproof way to test Ryu, Ken and Akuma’s cr Short, cr Roundhouse combo. If you have a friend, you can also test it out that way (and I have tested it with a buddy as well as the training dummy). You can get your friend to try to block after the cr Short, or have them block the cr Short and try to reversal attack the cr Roundhouse.
All of my tests have proven this link to be a combo. The training dummy when set to autoblock, will always block the 2nd hit of an attack if it’s not a combo. And it never blocks the cr Roundhouse after the cr Short. And I have also pulled it off in matches online and offline. I’m trying to find videos of other players doing this combo, and as soon as I find one, I’ll post it.
I’m not using turbo, and the timing is about the same as cr Strong, cr Forward, but definitely not as fast as cr Short x 2. The cr Roundhouse will not combo from the max range of the cr Short, it has to be done from point blank or upto the mid range of the cr Short. The cr Short doesn’t have to be done meaty, or in the corner, or any other situational setups.
This is a completely different issue, so let’s not get it mixed up into this discussion. Close s.HK always gives you enough frame advantage to link into c.HK but usually pushes the opponent too far away for c.HK to reach. Doing it meaty shotens the gap between the first and second hits of s.HK so there’s less combined pushback, allowing the c.HK to reach.
Cool. Thanks for testing it dude. That’s definitely an interesting result, if only for academic reasons, haha.
Another way of checking to see when an attack connects is looking at the score, because you get points for every hit. It’d be nice if three or four more basic things were tested like this just so we could verify that it’s the same issue everywhere. Canceling into a special move should be easy to test and chaining light attacks shouldn’t be too hard either. I’d do it but i’ve got another video to make today.