well Dry Rocket grab range (.95) is only slightly better than normal throw range (.9). And it’s also over half the range of oil rocket (1.6), which is slightly shorter than Zangiefs LP SPD (1.65). Hawk LP SPD = 1.5, Abel LP TT = 1.3, Seth = 1.1 (seriously??), Honda LP Ochio = 1.5 … So those are the numbers, and it’s fair when you think about it. All the other characters with command throws can only consider their positioning afterward, while Hakan can both put you in a certain spot on the stage from mid to full screen, while having a couple different follow-ups to choose from (oil? safe slide? safe jump? DDT? Block? slide DNC U1??)
And don’t forget that Hakan can DNC backwards for invincibility frames, so he doesn’t have to be so concerned with meter management.:rock:
Edit: Also, with BDNC as a possibility, you can probably mess-up a lot of option selects that way, if you ever get to play against top competition.:rock::rock:
You’re right on every front and I’m not implying that his regular Oil Rockets should be the end-all be-all moves, but when it comes down to it, the only version that you REALLY want to use is EX and even that works well when oiled. Unoiled? Not nearly as good as you would want it to be.
As for the overhead discussion, again it’s not something that would make him or break him, just an extra tool to have. It won’t stop anyone from crouching all day, but if every time they do they eat 150 damage, they might start thinking about standing up more often… And that’s nothing short of great for Hakan.
From a risk/reward standpoint I think maybe giving him a quick “instaoverhead” via an early jumping attack similar to what characters like Chun and Adon have would be more than sufficient without making his already lethal vortex too OP’d (jumping short or forward maybe). Initially when the game first came out I was convinced that his standing fierce (the second part of it specifically) was an overhead. Now looking back I’m glad I was wrong because that would have made, what is already considered to be one of the best normals in the game, borderline ridongculous.
Having read your post regarding Rose, I now understand alot better the idea behind some of the balancing that needs to be done to keep the game balanced. I had not thought of it that way, and I appreciae you bringing that to the table. I’m personally fine whether he gets an overhead or not, either way, but I now understand the argument against the overhead a little better, and I will be sure to keep that rose analogy in mind when I post future ideas for Hakan improvement.
I do not want to break Hakan. I could care less if he gets to S tier. I just want to make it so that those who use him will be able to get back all that they put into him. No buffs should make him broken with or without oil. Buffs should also work with hus current style. IE: his style revolves around oiling up alot, don’t make oiling up pointless, or so easy that it requires no thought or risk. His style also revolves around his oiled up state being way better than his unoiled one. His grab SHOULD have bad range compared to other grabs, until oiled up that it, then its one of the best.
I think if EX oil Rocket had just a smidgen more range, it would help Hakan out when he genuinely needs it while unoiled. like when he’s under pressure, but the opponent’s blockstring keeps them outside of your normal Oil Rocket. Because its tied to meter, it can’t be spammed, so there’s a limitation off the bat, keeping this buff from changing his whole gameplan. make its range, I don’t know, maybe 1, or even 1.1? still crappy compared to oiled EX and other SPDs, but usable no? oiled EX can just stay the same as it is now.
as for this whole overhead fiasco, like I said before, It can go either way for me personally. but if he were to have one, to keep it from breaking him, just make it one of his weaker pokes, like I said on page 3, his f.LP. Is it something that will make the opponents tremble in fear of crowching? no, but it might make them rethink crouching if they’re near death. just that little bit can help. It doesn’t combo into slide, so there’s no danger of some inescapable mixup game either.
This is my last attempt to find some happy middle ground with this.
The only issue I see with making f.LP his overhead would be that it would essentially turn out to be the fastest overhead in the game (along with Dudley’s?) whereas s.HP is pretty slow in comparison.
Still, I’m ok wether he gets an overhead or not, I just hope he gets some buffs of any kind as long as they’re not stupid.
Not gonna lie, the biggest reason why I say f.LP could be the overhead is simply because it’s animation could look like one. Overheads whose animations make no sense are silly.
While yes, it would be the fasted overhead in the game, it might also be the weakest, since it only does 40 damage. I am worried that it would still be too fast however. I’m trying real hard not to suggest something that would be OP for any of his buffs.
lets face it the wish of a overhead is just that everybody like the DDT from its proppertys but there is NO GOOD WAY to mindtrap the enemy in one and its terrible hard to land… instead of giving a overhead to Hakan it would be much more fun to make the DDT saver and / or easyer to hit…
-faster startup
-better grabbox
-Amorframes or Invunerability on startup and or flying (at least for the EX version)
juggle grab abilitys after f+lp or a2a mp would solve the issue more direktly without a overhead
-moves that forcing a standup…
Canceable with dash
let all DDTs change the direktion and fly over crouchers!!
just give the DDT some more sence and much issues would be solved at once as excample could a hit invunerabel EX DDT (like super–lk)
not only gave the DDT more sence it would athou gave hakan a reversal thats actualy usefull AT LEAST WITH EX…
it is as it is DAMN hard to land
EDIT: since tomorrow is the first “Test” for arcade we will soon know if capcom finetuned him a bit and in wich way;)
having read this post, I must agree. Screw overhead, lets make DDT better! I love landing DDT but its SO HARD. If I could land this at least twice a round, I’d be happy.
I always have so much trouble landing it personally. I need to work on my mindgames and DDT setups. and when people get scared, I find that they’re MORE likely to crouch-back, which is DDT’s worst nightmare.
I would make unoiled Hakan a mix between the current one and his current oiled state. Oiling up should increase his hp to 1100 and increase his damage. Oiling up would go through specific attacks depending on what they are. Low=same mid oil=normals and hard oils=specials. Ex Oil would stop time for same duration as ex scar for Sagat.
I was not aware that Hakan took 10% less damage… nice
also, timestop, normal and special immunity etc. is just plain silly. EX projectile immunity is nice enough as it is, and all that stuff would reduce the risk/reward factor of oil. you risk getting hit, and if you are not hit, you are rewarded with a supped-up Hakan. any more immunity than what he has on EX would reward Hakan players for getting hit. I ain’t cool with that.
Turn his coward crouch into anti air. Basically opponents slide off his back and fly behind him. Doesn’t even have to do much damage, just nice to get jumpers off your back.
How about allowing Hakan to move the second the opponent leaves his hands with his command grab. This would allow him to oil up at higher strengths or get in on the person.
