Hakan Improvements for SSF4 AE?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

I think that making all slides go under projectiles might be a little too much, especially for a grappler, even one as limited as Hakan :smiley:

I think the best route would be to have only Lp slide avoid projectiles. Since it already kinda does that, the idea wouldn’t be seen as unfounded as across the board projectile avoidance. to further keep the move balanced, I think that fireballs that hit twice like most EX fireballs should be able hit hakan, so projectile don’t become a moot point against Hakan.

with a projectile proof LP slide, hakan’s mid-range game will improve I believe. Right now, when hakan is about half-screen away from the opponent and to far away to use his pokes, trying to sneak around or under projectiles can be tougher than full screen since there’s less reaction time, and the current LP slide needs really good timing to dodge projectiles. An improved slide will allow him to punish more in that close-to-middle ranged game, so that would also serve the purpose of making him scarier to approach.

such a change isn’t too broken of gamechanging either, since it wouldn’t allow for fullscreen projectile punishment, just a way to get hakan closer. It would still be risky to use it, due to the slide’s massive recovery when wiffed, but it can still give Hakan-users a little more to work with.

as an example: Ryu throws a hadouken from full screen. You do a Lp slide nice and early, and even though you’re nowhere near hitting Ryu with it, the slide lands you practically on his doorstep. Or if Ryu throws one from half screen, you can throw out that slide to punish it without having to worry about timing it as precisely as you would right now.

that’s just my 2 cents

62

I see your point Mac and I would like to add they could make the slide slower if they decide to go that route. I mean it’s not safe already anyways so I really don’t think it should be that big of a deal.

63

There are a few routes I can think of, most wof which, is the oil.

  1. Bring his stats and properties up from oil’d form to non-oiled, and actually make his oil up form really dangerious. If this were to happen, I think the oil shower active frames should stay as they are, because most people have the biggest complaint about getting the oil on. If the oil shower gave huge improvements, then I’d see oil shower staying as it is. It’s just Hakan without oil is one of the worst characters, and the only way to make Hakan viable, not even great, but viable, is to put the oil on. Bringing his stats to oil status unoiled would make him decent, and the oil form really dangerious.

  2. Get rid of oil shower, and make his stats equal to oiled up. Would take all the fuss out of getting the oil on, and no worry about fighting time. This is probably the only thing most Hakan fans won’t want(including me), because he loses that unquiness about him. It’s just a seggestion. Won’t happen though.

  3. Most common of what people want, leave his un-oil and oil stats the same, but decrease the time to put the oil on and slightly increase the length of the oil staying on. Most likely to happen.

As for the oil slide, I’d wish it’d go under most of the projectles. Gouken and Ibuki and go under and through damn near anything, and Hakan can’t?

And that air grab. Crap that’s useless. I know it’s mostly defensive, but wow.

I don’t care about Hakan not having AA. For the most part, his st. HP works well. At the very least, it trades in his favor.

And if Hakan is gonna be just as slow as Gief and Hawk, then give him the same health, c’mon.

64

yeah, at the end of the day, Hakan should really keep the oil-up gimmick. The way I look at it is, needing to oil up is a good way to keep the player from going into autopilot like some people do with other characters. that’s why Seth Killian was saying he’s for advanced and expert players, you have to be constantly paying attention and know what you’re doing.

I also like the oil shower, because its kinda like a twix bar. Need a moment? oil up. If I’m doing a safe oil up, then I have a moment to think about everything without just sitting there doing nothing.

65

It almost never trades in his favor because the damage is broken up in 2 hits. If it were one hit only the trade would be much more acceptable IMO.

I still think it’s fine as is, but if it hit overhead (which it should) it would truly be a nasty normal.

66

That would be nice if it traded beter via 1 hit, but by doing that, you would lose a good anti-focus tool. I use it all the time when I don’t have the time to throw out an armor breaking slide.

If it was an overhead as well, it might very well become the single best normal in the game, or at least the best overhead, considering its range, speed and damage. I’d love it to be an overhead, but I doubt capcom would give him that, considering his grab is what he’s “supposed” to use against people who just hold Down-back.

I think making his foreward Lp might be a little better. Like his HP, it acts as an AA, and the animation (in my opinion) could look like overhead. It would be a quick little thing that would give hakan something to poke through with, without piling everything into one move.

If we try to make HP our solution to everything (AA, overhead, poke, etc.) then we risk putting all our eggs into one basket, and over centralizing our metagame.

67

I do agree with forward LP being AA or even overhead quality (I think he needs more overheads for mixup)…but some characters already have god like normals that can do just about everything for them, so why not Hakan? Guile St. HP is a good example of all purpose normal. Bison st.HK(misses crouchers)or st.MK are all purpose. Chun Li’s st.MP is really god like all purpose move. And of course, there are other insanely good all purpose normals from other characters that ain’t popping up in my brain at the very second.

If you play around with forward LK and MK…at proper distance(ie somewhat faraway distance while your opponent is jumping in) they do make surprisingly AA quality stuff. Getting the spacing down is the bitch though.

68

regarding antiair i still like the idee of f+LP TRADE --> LK+DDT it would look cool give his DDT a realy nice use and increase the damage of a good antiair normal with fair priority :stuck_out_tongue: without changing its dificutly to land

69

Yeah, I agree with you. I was thinking in general what could be done with s.HP. I wasn’t actually implying that it should do more damage and be an overhead. That would be too much. It could still be two hits but maybe have the damage spread better? Or maybe it would flat out improve his game to make a different normal his AA of choice (f.MP or f.LP come to mind)

That’s definitely one way to do it. I just think DDT should have more uses than the unreliable (and predictable) setups that it has now. They work and they’re fun for a while but if you’re playing the same person they’ll eventually pick it up.

70

here are my goofy ideas.

  1. when you do a hakan slide you can either choose to hit punches for the follow up body slam. if you hit kicks it does a different animation where he runs into you and then slides backwards a little bit, to avoid some punishment. (I know i’m going to get crap for this one)

  2. ability to cancel Hakan’s ddt during his slip animation when you hold it down. (why not?)

  3. During coward crouch give him the ability to prone forwards or backwards. (would like to hear comments on this…)

  4. hit invulnerability on ex-command grab. More range on unoiled command grabs.

  5. cr.fp (the headbutt) is an overhead. (but grapplers dont get overheads! Abel has one, shut up.)

  6. what if hakan’s ddt had 1 tick of armor?

  7. Start the match with 20 seconds of oil. all versions of oil have +5 seconds added. ability to stack oil up to 30 seconds?

71

stacking of oil should be unlimited

72

  1. Would be interesting, but capcom won’t do it in a balance update. plan to see mostly frame data or effect tweaks for most characters.

  2. of all the BIG changes that people want, this is the one that, while still unlikely, is the most likely (does that make any sense?). It would add to the guessing game that grapplers love, and would give him more options on wakeup (DDT is still silly to throw out randomly)

3.interesting, but I doubt it. It would make fireballs harmless, and as awesome as that would be, it woud not be fair. No move should make fireballs obsolete. Coward crouch shuld stay put. I could support CC canceling or allowing buffering for other moves, making it alot better as a close range fireball punisher. imagine, you coward crouch to dodge a close range fireball, and cancel into DDT. beautiful.

4.I can agree with this, and additional range on unoiled grabs is probably the most likely thing to happen if we even get any buffs at all.

  1. sorry but no. the move doesn’t look like an overhead (yes that matters). You can argue s.HP or f.LP for overheads, but not c.HP.

  2. hmmmmmmm. I assume by tick you mean frame? I’m not as good with frame data so I don’t know what kind of affect tha would have, but it could help.

  3. you can’t have your cake and eat it too. you can either have start up oiled with everything else as normal, or stacking oil and normal startup. Both is too much. Also, the oil up times should remain the same.

73

Just for the record a lot of these are terrible ideas.

74

Not all of them are terrible. Are all of them likely or entirely practical? No, but you need to get all the ideas you can out there, so that eventually you will hit upon the good stuff. Even discussing some of these more lackluster ideas, like mine for example, may tweak them to be better, or come up with something else altogether.

Alot of what’s being said is probably written on the spot as well(I know my posts are) but there are others whom you can tell are putting some real thought and research into their ideas. Saying that they’re terrible doesn’t help. if you must, at least say WHY they’re terrible and how you would imptove them, or come up with something better yourself.

But at the end of the day, this is speculation. This thread will have NO IMPACT on the arcade release. its just a fun intellectual excercise and people like getting their hopes up. :smiley:

75

The thing is, a lot of them ARE terrible. I mean really… Overheads? Stackable oil? Starting off oiled?

Granted, the only ideas I thought were legitimately intelligent were those that were posted in the first page, some in the second. After that, all these people came in with “lol stack oil!” and “overhead!!! ABEL HAS1”

I mean I don’t mind the whole idea thing but this thread is for improvements to make him better; i.e., more viable. Not broken/stupid/easy/etc.

76

What exactly is broken/stupid/easy about an overhead when crouching avoids 80% or more of Hakan’s tools? If his grabs didn’t suck I would agree that he doesn’t need an overhead. But as he is now he most definitely could use one. Plenty of characters have broken shit and overall work out fine, I don’t understand this adversity to giving Hakan some decent tools.

I like the oil system as it is now to be honest, I don’t think he needs to start with oil or have oil stack (that’s quite dumb because at that point every match would have every Hakan player spam the shit out of oil till he’s stacked up 60 or more seconds of it).

77

From a personal perspective, I think the overhead is unnecessary. In my opinion breaking your opponents defense (down back) is part of the challenge for Hakan in general. Of course that is subjective at best, but thats how I feel.

From a technical perspective, an overhead (in this case s.fp) wouldn’t really accomplish much. People would still down back all day. You’d have to be in range to do the s.fp anyway, which is a challenge in itself without being poked. Then, even if you do land it, what do you get? A little damage? Since Hakans unoiled grabs don’t have range at all you couldn’t set up any throws with it… More than likely after you land the overhead, people will just get out of range again and then down back once again while you try to get it.

I really just don’t see how its necessary at all. It’d be pretty cool I guess but it wouldn’t help as much as some people in here are sayin (not you btw).

78

I can fully understand what you’re saying, and I personally am a little tentative about giving him an overhead as well. If his grab range is improved a little bit, there would be no need for it. If I had to choose between the two, I’d choose beter grab range.

While starting out with oild would be nice, it would be a little too much. I think stacking oil needs to be looked at in a different way as well. Stacking as we’ve been talking about it would make hakan broken. Like Colino said, people would just spam it. However, a couple tweaks to the system could make it better, without being broken. what I propose is limited stacking. for evample, lets say you pu on MK oil. couple seconds later, you use LK oil. as opposed to completely overwriting the MP oil (which is annoying) it would stack, but only to the time limit of the original MK oil. This would reward the player for oiling up regularly, but not for spamming it needlessly. additionally, lets say you have MK oil on again. time goes by, and you find an opportunity to use HK oil! rather than stacking on the MP oil, it over writes it! once again, rewarding the player for oiling up, but not for neddlessly spamming! you would never have more than HK (or EX) oil at a time. So basically, oil of lesser value stacks, and oil of equal or greater value overwrites.

Now, this may take some (or alot) of tweaking. for example, maybe oiling up adds less time when Hakan is already oiled up. So when under MK oil, and Hakan used LK oil, rather than adding the full 6 seconds of LK oil, you only ge 3 or 4 seconds. it still stacks, but it’s not overwhelming and can’ be spammed.

does this sound more reasonable to everyone? or does this still sound broken?

79

Truth right here.

I think other characters need tweaked before Hakan. That alone would make Hakan better.

One thing I hate is how people can use unavoidable ultras for chip damage wins on wake-up. I think I’d prefer if use of those ultras were safer on block just so I don’t end up getting punked in a dead heat. It’s like “Why should the other player get free damage on me after I earned damage on them?” Supers are fine doing as much chip damage as they do (if they do chip), because it’s both expensive, and less common. But nah we got Cody’s U2 doing nearly 100 chip damage, and no way of jumping away from the dust.

And damn, there have been times I was playing as Hakan, and Ibuki did her blockable command throw after I neutral jumped, and I kid you not, I was pulled down and into the grab animation. Not only that, but Ibuki’s command special overhead is a CONSISTENT air to air any time I play against her as Hakan. Don’t get me started on her slide and neckbreaker… fuck that bitch.

No it’s not an intellectual exercise. So many people seem to want every character to have an overhead. Back before Super came out, in the Rose forums there were at least half a dozen people spewing the same sort of garbage, hoping that Rose’s furthest reaching poke (F.HK) would become an overhead. And it was argued against by myself, among other reasonable players, due to the fact that it would make her poke game way too strong. alternating between her slide and F.HK as an overhead, and those could end up the only pokes that Rose would need.

Problem sound familiar? Oh yes, Hakan has a slide too. oh c.HP for the overhead? Oh it’s a really far reaching normal as well? Oh it kind of looks like slide? Oh Hakan also has a far reaching poke that hits low??? That’s an easy way to break a character. :tup: You see the pattern here? :looney::looney:

Put it in perspective: Dhalsim’s B.LP overhead has 14 frames of start-up. Rose’s f.HK has 11 start-up frames… To keep things balanced? Either reduce the damage, or slow it the fuck down. I’m personally fine with no overhead, because as was said before, there aren’t many characters who can combo from it or otherwise mount a comeback from it.

For the record, Hakan’s c.HP has 14 frames of start-up as well, so zzz, yes, I’ve read it all before. If people don’t like Hakan’s design, they should just pick a character that fits their needs instead of vomiting fantasies all over this sub-forum.

Give him a fireball. or like a jug full of crude oil that he throws and does gray damage AND instantly stuns the other player, giving Hakan a few options to consider: To oil yourself, or land that big 720, yeah?

80

The thing that I find to be a grave misconception about Hakan is how most people go out of their way to point out how poor the range is on his unoiled oil rocket as a way to justify his limitations as a character. I firmly believe that this was intentional on Capcom’s part in order to emphasize Hakan’s playstyle as a more unique alternative to a traditional grappler. Without oil Hakan relies more on his mid ranged pokes, low jump arc and A to A dominance while capitalizing on situations that allow him to oil up. IMO if Hakan’s regular OR was given even half the range of say Gief or Hawk’s respective 360 grabs his advantages when oiled up wouldn’t be as significant. The move itself should be looked upon as merely a tool in his moveset that he can used in specific situations when unoiled and not as a his main source of offense. Plus ,IMO as well, it would probably make Hakan too good and not as much fun to play because the challenge and benefits associated with successfully oiling up ,which btw more than makeup for his shortcomings unoiled, wouldn’t be as rewarding. The significant threat of Hakan’s OR when oiled should not be underestimated especially when he has invincibility frames to work with once meter is taken into account.