I’m with Danonino on red focus. Focus-based players are more annoying to me than low profile abusers for the simple sake of how difficult Guy has it breaking focus. His jump speed and arcs also make it horrendous to try and jump over or past Focus-spamming, as you can easily react into a forward of backward dash and punish Guy in the air.
As for updates, I don’t want to make Guy a viable player, I just want Guy to have the options to punish any simple-input, obnoxious routine that has him in block strings. By routine, I mean a repetition of 2-5 moves that Guy cannot punish without pinpoint reversal timing or EX to spare.
I would either: 1, give the first hit of his EX BSK to overhead; 2, the first (2/3) frames of any normal BSK to have low-attack invincibility; This will kill most of these routines either.
In the first instance, character will have until Guy’s first EX bar to play without common sense, after which they will after to at least contemplate DP’ing in their block string to counter the EX. BSK (which staggering your cr. lights will reveal) or try and time the standing block (which staggering will also reveal). Admittedly, many will probably take the hit and start again, but it at least gives Guy’s a knockdown to start their footsies and mind games. If you are within KO range from an EX in this instance, it means you can’t close out a match waiting in crouch or poke-crouching. It will actually give Guy players the level of pressure we dream about, where player RESPECT that you picked Guy on the select screen. And at a pinnacle point too. Game point.
In the second instance, it gives gives the ability to punish an array of crouching normals the the way DPs punish… Everything +The Laws of Relativity. The hit boxes of normal BSKs can hit Chun or Cammy in their lengthy pokes but not at full range other than :mp:.BSK which still takes precise time. It’s not that cheap since you shouldn’t be playing high level SF and obnoxiously mashing crouching normals anyway. If the Guy player gets baited - either by aggressive shotos or Chun/Cammy feints - into BSKs Guy can be punished.
These ideas are based of the same complaint Danonino made: I genuinely that Guy is supposed to be a pressure inducing, bait-centric character, but so much of Guy’s arsenal provokes no pressure in the rest of the cast and it’s typically because crouching, low profile and Focus spam neutral the pressure of Guy. It would be one thing if Guy was just about predicting your opponent when they are under panic, but even after knockdowns or having your opponent in a block string with too much of the roster once both players know the match up the Guy player has the greater risk and the lesser reward over decision making.
In addition to either of these I would 3, Ramp up the stun on his f.:mp: overhead. It doesn’t combo into anything. It doesn’t link from anything other than focus crumple. It can be reacted to with normals and DP alternatives. It does kara cancel (thank you Nebbz…). In this instance, Run->slide and :lp:.BushFlip->Grab are the only kara’s that will punish if the opponent tries to stand to their feet to block the overhead. To get the grab out of BushFlip the sweet spot takes long enough for the opponent to DP before you get to an active frame, so they will at least get a trade if not a punish. Technically. Is this easy to do mid-match? No. Is that the point? Yes. And this is only if you go for the grab. Kara->Run->Slide will be more vicious to crouch-ers in the corner, to the point where the choice between hard KD and stun mid-match will be like playing against Jigsaw, but it beggars the question: Why are you that close to Guy in the first place?
The improvements I’ve suggest would force M.Bison (Dictator) and Rose to rethink a cr.poke->poke-special repetition. It would stop Shotos from being obnoxiously close without a game plan (the don’t need to be anyway). It won’t affect a Guile that is doing boom->keepaway anyway, and grapplers like Gief and T.Hawk and Abel will still pretzel you as usually. It just primarily makes people more concerned when Guy does get in.
Never had issues with a Ryu downbacking, learn to start using EX Run stop and cancelling into EX Hozanto on the reaction of a focus. It’s useful, you’ll protect yourself with the ex runstop and you’ll break the armor with EX Runstop which if you do it on the focus start up, they can’t not beat it. Learn to start using meaty setups, if they delay the wakeup we can likely still meaty. This just means the game will now become a reaction based game rather than predict… meaning OS will now be obsolete. Remember delayed wakeup has an effect on everyone. You’re getting way to crazy over this because you’re losing an option that well you can go around… what if delayed wakeup means you can’t reversal or something. Wait it out.
Armour break focus - I hear you Blooddrunk. If Guy was particularly good at building meter, I wouldn’t even request any changes, since the risk of leaving Guy alone to charge on :lk:.BSK’s for EX would be too dangerous. The problem is the need for meter to break focus, meter you can easily regret later.
“EX Runstop” - how does this beat focus? I’ve never come across this before.
About beating focus I mostly was on about red focus and what could be a problem, not the current one although without meter I sometimes get caught out, usually a bushin flip/hozanto or cr.mk saves the day
Talking about Ryu, I most definitely have problems with Ryu downbacking. Well I should say good Ryus downbacking. To be honest Its probably just me but he gets to sit there confident he can react to anything I do to open him up. Probably a bit salty tonight after a few bad rounds to be honest. Run stop after a block string gives no advantage, just means he can crouch block for longer. I mean its not easy to do but when its a Ryu that knows the matchup he knows any attempt at a crossup or overhead will result in either a DP or a cr.mk. Now I could stand outside his cr.mk range but then I have to deal with his main strengths and hope I can catch him with a standing mk or an anti air but when hes got a life lead I need to get in not the other way around. He will not fall for elbow bait as he has no need to risk the whiff of a DP and knows if I’m in range cr.mk will avoid it anyway. There is no fear is the problem, I need to back right up and try predict a hadouken to run through it or time a jump in that he already has a 3 frame DP to murder me with OR get even closer and go for the throw. It just seems a war of attrition to actually break that downback hes got but mostly I’m just sick of the cr.mk hes got and it stuffing crossups.
Imagine if we could guarantee Ryu whiffing any crossup attempt with a timed cr.mp and avoiding any cr.mk>hadouken pressure by doing cr.mk under them… there’d be war ha ha. I know we can already punish cr.mk hadouken, but not with such tiny risk.
Im not saying the Ryu macth is too hard or a 7/3 or some bullshit its actually an awesome matchup. I am saying the cr.mk to go under stuff is perhaps broken (along with the other cast members having the same tool and rose Dhalsim crossup nonsense), I also find it strange that Guy has such few armour breaking moves. I’m also just having a bit of a whinge. I’m good at that.
Looking over that… good god my writing, spelling and grammar is awful. urrrgggg
Also maybe I’m using my meter too much for ex-run and the like and should start using ex-hozanto to whiff punish more… hmmmm
Guy builds meter like an animal thats true
The way they made guy in sf4 give him tools to build meter and get press fireballs but his neutral game is weak compare to alot of the cast. I think they thought elbow drop would be a better tool then it was design to be in sf4 sure it can bait reversals which leads to cross ups or jump ins but it doesn’t chip can be low profiled I suggest it be come a + frame of 2 block on standing and more so a crouching opponent or if cancel from bushin flip allow for 10 damage of chip and can’t be low profiled.
I think he means you run stop in their face and even if you get hit by Focus lev 1 or 2, you can still be safe or even punish them? Haven’t tried this actually - but they could always backdash, whether they hit you or not.
EX Stop has armor through out duration. If they release you will absorb it, depending on when they release and if they dash forward you can punish, backdashing can be harder to punish but it resets neutral. They waste 2 bars while you only waste 1. It’s easy for Guy to build meter when he gets in and both izunas can build meter for him. Plus if they hold it all the way til level 3, you’ll likely recover in time to punish as well.
Get into the habit of using Guy’s options even if they don’t seem right, like Ex run stop during blockstrings especially with unsafe runstop methods.
I guess red focus is one thing to fish for when opponent has meter. Staggered target combo is something that tends to catch focus charges, so people may look to countering that. EX Run stop to throw for a free setup sounds good.
I love playing Guy. I don’t want him to be overpowered. I just want the ability to beat my opponent rather than already being better than they are. I know that doesn’t sound like a lot of sense, but there is no fear in people facing Guy, which ruins the potential of putting the fear into people. Typically, pressure only comes in when the Guy player is already significantly better than his opponent and the opponent is making natural mistakes that Guy user can capitalize on. I look at Nebbiez’s or Drunks playstyles and I see so little wasted motion, a tandem of some pretty fast reactions and execution on steroids. Looking at replays even, and seeing the input commands between the Guy player and the opponent, you see the string of commands the Guy players put in when a Ryu player pressing cr.:mp: just to poke twice, lol.
They aren’t fearing Guys tools. They are fearing you as a player in my opinion and I do feel that the wins I get came from my opponent making systematic match up errors rather than them falling for pressure and baits, stuff I could punish with other characters on the roster and more effectively. I don’t think my decision making or execution are bad, they are just not GOD-LIKE. Offline, I dominate my peeps on the basis I make shit up about the Guy match up to make them horrified of him. One of my friends learned about low profile moves (from the beginners guide to guide thread mind, lmao. That thing kills Guy players as much as it helps XD) and I lost all fear. We joke about it in sets when he remarks about how flustered he’d get over certain block strings for no reason.
i agree that the f.mp overhead should be cancellable. like almost all the other two hit normals in the game. this could also help with characters that just hold down back and stand tech all day. (just get grabbed out of frame traps, or they tech if you try to grab) with overhead runslide we would get a knock down and a little control over what our opponent is goin to do next. lol. i would like to see the hozanto be cancelable aswell though. that would give us a bit of push in the grappler games. say we are at full screen from a gief and he has the life lead. he is just gonna sit there. with this change we would be able to choose whether we hit him with the shoulder and FADC back or just cancel it. as of now if we dont run then most characters dont care. they only start to play if we use the run overhead run slide mixup (if you can call it that) with this change we can add a new mind game to the mix. this would make them have to use some meter (EX green hand) and punish them for a mistake.
This hipster in me actually doesn’t want the f.:mp: overhead to combo (except for maybe on counter hit, but even then only into light attacks), but I understand what you mean. It would definitely make people fear Guy reaping their health in the corner if they merely crouch in fear. I won’t complain if it does become a cancellable move. Since it is so critical to Guys ground game I do think it should have a feature about it that will compel player who know the match up to block it high. Currently, most players will risk eating the hit. Upto 4 times I’ve counted in my matches. I messaged a player afterwards, since he was an A-ranked Ken, and other than the 4 overheads I gave him in the match, admittedly I didn’t make effective offence. His response was “You can’t do anything with that move, and cr lp and shoryu beat it. I was just reading for timing lol”.
Walk speed increased
Crouching MP has weaker hitbox, can’t be used as an anti-air
EX Bushin Senpukayku has a larger hitbox, easier to suck in opponent, start-up increased from 4F to 6F
Increased range on 2nd hit of U1.
Elbow Drop can no longer be low profiled
Guess I’ll using TK izuna and air to air a lot more now. Unless I can speak and get cr.mp to be reverted and ex tatsu to remain 4f.
Why would they do that to cr.mp? I honestly don’t get it. A whopping 70 damage that leads into nothing… MUST DESTROY.
It really worries me when they take away is most viable meterless anti-air, especially when I hard-coded the fast reactions to use it in almost any anti-air situation already -.-
Has there been any sight or confirmation they kept his target combo buff the same or close to as what was teased in the ultra trailer?
To be fair though, cr MP was quite a braindead anti-air, which beat a lot of stuff. Guy still has viable anti-airs, we just have to think more now (cr MK, far LK/MK/HK, EX tatsu/air throw, EX run slide). I think it’ll still be a strong poke on ground, and I’m just glad they didn’t touch far MP.
EX tatsu startup isn’t a problem either, it discourages wakeup DP and it should really be used as an unbreakable anti-air, which it now should do a good job of, seeing as it apparently sucks in better. Having EX Galactic Tornado’s vacuum effect, now that’d be REALLY fancy
Elbow drop buff is also great, it was always disheartening that Guy’s crossup or elbow drop mixup was shut down completely by low profile moves. Now if this also includes the Bushin flip elbow, I feel that Guy’s EX Bushin Flip will be really good.
Increased walk speed and U1 range is also a nice bonus.
Overall, Guy’s changes in this version are looking great.
I’m not that worried about the ex tatsu change. Everyone and their dick has 4f safe jumps by now so I don’t really see it changing anything in that regard. As it is, I seem lucky to get 3 hits, let alone 4, and god help you getting more than 1-2 hits if you used it as an anti-air. if they add a sort of gouken ex tatsu vacuum to it, that’d be awesome.
As far as the other anti-airs go, I still think it’s dumb. Those meterless ones are way shittier for the most part. I don’t want to be essentially required to have meter for good anti-airs =(
